Home Protection...what do you use?

[jphickory]

One point to remember, if there is an intruder in your home, it's after dark in the wee hours of the morning, you MUST assume they are armed. To do anything less is foolish and could get you shot.
If you must shoot, make sure they are dead, it will be a lot easier to explain to the authorities.
For one, I would positively NOT challenge them verbally. That makes you a threat and also gives your location, a verbal challenge may result in a gunshot towards you.
Just some things to think about.

Koi, I agree that the verbal challenge in my defense plan has a drawback - it gives your position away and that is pretty serious negative. However behind a closed door and being strategically positioned to minimize exposure, a random shot by the bad guy would not likely find it's target. The positives of the challenge is it greatly reduces the chance of killing someone with no intent to cause harm. When I was a kid our neighbor, an elderly widow, woke up to find a strange man sleeping on her couch. He lived a street over and was so drunk the night before he came home to the wrong house. Neighbor forgot to lock door and he came on in. Lucky for him he was not shot and no charges were even pressed against him. Another positive is it helps classify the shooting as a self defense act - especially if the verbal challenge and shot is recorded on the call to law enforcement. Basically if every reasonable effort to not use lethal force was exhausted you are in a pretty good legal position. But I do get your point - in some cases it would not be worth the risk to forfeight your position. You just would have to use your best instincts if a situation presented itself.

 

[sweatmachine]

Mossberg 835, 20" barrel, and a few thousand rounds of 00 buckshot, all within reach of the bed. 'Nuff said.

 

[slowgator]

I have a picture of my mother-in-law placed strategically at each point of entry. If you can get past the ugly mug on that evil bitch then help yourself to whatever you want!!

That's some funny shit Roy! Is that her pic as your avatar?
:lol3::lol2::lol:

 

[sweatmachine]

When I was a kid our neighbor, an elderly widow, woke up to find a strange man sleeping on her couch. He lived a street over and was so drunk the night before he came home to the wrong house. Neighbor forgot to lock door and he came on in.

I did that once in college. It was a huge student-only apartment complex near UT campus. Every building and apartment looked the same, inside and out. We were bouncing from building to building, and I ended up crashing on the wrong couch. I woke up at 6am looking for the bathroom, took a good long drunk piss, and instead of the Playboy magazines my buddies had, there were People magazines...I got the fuck outta there quickly!

 

[jphickory]

Mossberg 835, 20" barrel, and a few thousand rounds of 00 buckshot, all within reach of the bed. 'Nuff said.

835 Ulti-mag with 3.5" shells kicks like the devil.

 

[jphickory]

I did that once in college. It was a huge student-only apartment complex near UT campus. Every building and apartment looked the same, inside and out. We were bouncing from building to building, and I ended up crashing on the wrong couch. I woke up at 6am looking for the bathroom, took a good long drunk piss, and instead of the Playboy magazines my buddies had, there were People magazines...I got the fuck outta there quickly!

That's is funny! Man those college days were the best.

 

[sweatmachine]

835 Ulti-mag with 3.5" shells kicks like the devil.

Mine is an Ulti-Mag, then again I think all 835s are. I have 3 barrels for mine: a 20" barrel, the factory 26" ported barrel, and a rifled slug barrel with a cantilever scope mount. The rifled barrel with 3" slugs is a shoulder killer. The only time I've used 3.5" shells is for turkey hunting. 3.5" #4 Turkey Load is a mean bastard indeed! I've put many thousands of rounds through mine. It's been a good gun.

That's is funny! Man those college days were the best.

Indeed! They were the best times I can barely remember!

 

[jphickory]

Mine is an Ulti-Mag, then again I think all 835s are. I have 3 barrels for mine: a 20" barrel, the factory 26" ported barrel, and a rifled slug barrel with a cantilever scope mount. The rifled barrel with 3" slugs is a shoulder killer. The only time I've used 3.5" shells is for turkey hunting. 3.5" #4 Turkey Load is a mean bastard indeed! I've put many thousands of rounds through mine. It's been a good gun.



Indeed! They were the best times I can barely remember!

I've got the 26" ported brl only. I also use 3.5 #4 loads for turkey. Spring 2010 I was in a wierd position trying not to move with a Tom approaching me from the side. When I shot (somehow missed the bird) I didn't have the gun shouldered properly. The stock slammed into my cheekbone and my nose. Got a nose bleed and had some bruising. Ever since then I can't breathe as well through my nose and ENT said the blow deviated my nasal septum. I'll have to have surgery to fix it. I am seriously scared to shoot that gun with the magnum loads now - it kicked my ass that day and I'm still paying for it. Makes me want to shoot 2-3/4" shells again.

 

[Kframe]

I would NEVER attempt to 'clear' my home.
My house is a 2 level on a slab, bedrooms upstairs.
If a BG is rummaging around on the ground floor, I have a procedure worked out.

1. Get 870.
2. Call 911, report situation, hand phone to wife and keep connected to dispatch.
3. Wife and I go to baby's room.
4. Announce (yell) that cops have been called, and rack the 870 (nothing else says 'get the hell out' like racking a shotgun.
5. Wait. If anyone comes up the stairs, shoot 'em.

(Part of the phone call to 911 is to explain that we're armed, where in house we are located, that cops need to announce from bullhorn outdoors that they are on scene, at which point I will set down my weapon.)

Bad guy can take TV or whatever, I don't care and won't interfere. But, if they come upstairs after my loud verbal warning and loud racking the shotgun, I will assume they intend to kill me or my family, and they won't get the chance.

YRMV

 

[Kframe]

Koi - one thing that concerns me about leaving easily accessible firearms in the house, especially loaded ones, is that they could be used against you by a previously unarmed intruder that has entered your home during your absence. I'm sure you have thought of this, what are your thoughts? Do you lock 'em all up every time you leave?

I was wondering the same thing.
If I lived in an area where I was that concerned about home invasion, I'd carry on my person.
Personally, I don't like multiple loaded firearms scattered about, especially not above or behind a door.
At this point, in my location, I have the nighttime home defense bedroom firearm and no other loaded guns elsewhere.

 

[Kframe]

#8's?? Not to be picky but you'd do allot better with #4's or triple ot. #8's are bird shot and they aren't going to pack enough umph. You'll probably just piss'em off.

I disagree. I don't shoot at what I can't see. If you get a chest full (or even wing your leg or shoulder) from 12' away with #8's, your day is ruined. Try shooting a big yellow pages with a 12ga from 10-15 feet (average home shooting distances), the spread is so minimal at that range that you'll likely blast a plate-sized hole right through it).
Anything bigger than #8's (or #6's if you have real plaster walls) is an over-penetration risk and hazard to my family.

And, although they are cool guns, I really really think any rifle (like the AR's and other battle rifles posted) and the S&W 500 are NOT good choices for urban residential home defense.
Not only is over-penetration a serious problem, but the muzzle flash/blast will be overwhelming to the user. Don't plan on more than one accurate shot.
Sure, the 12ga. is no silent mouse, but if you've ever fired long-guns indoors you know that a shotgun 'boom' is not as bad as the rifle 'crack'.

Just talking from experience. YMMV.

 

[jphickory]

Frame, I say your plan sounds like a good one.

 

[Kframe]

Although not the most lethal choice, No 8's can be the right choice when you need to be concerned about wall penetration and possibly injuring friendlies. Within 20 yards - a direct hit from a 12 gauge firing 8 shot will bring almost anyone down.

Not really!

Twenty yards is the average range for bringing down dove, pheasant, quail and other such birds. Just doesn't work on humans the same. To much dispersion, not enough muzzle energy or pellets for good penetration in vital areas. You're not shooting to wound in a home invasion, you're shooting to kill. #8 shot isn't going to do the job, like #4's or triple ot. #4's won't penetrate two layers of sheet rock and insulation if you're actually concerned about people with in the home. I'll take my chances protecting them with something that can actually make a difference. Just think you ought to rethink your ammo strategy.



Depends upon the choke used and if you are on target with the load. I would rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6. Castle Doctrine allows use of "deadly force," for protection of yourself , family members and your property without retreat. There is no penalty for utilizing something that will get the job done effectively and efficiently.

Okay, so I'm serial posting, but I feel pretty strongly about this and I don't want any fellow Triumph fans doing idiot things that will get them jailed or killed. To say you'd 'rather be judged by 12 than carried by six' is like the same stupid 'loud pipes save lives' shit. The same people that say that are the ones that say you can shoot a guy on your porch and drag him into your kitchen.
If you are in a shooting, even justified, your legal fees will be in the hundreds of thousands, you will probably lose your job (even if justified), etc.

Have you ever shot at varying layers of sheetrock with #4's? I doubt it, because they will certainly penetrate 2 layers.

Furthermore, no home-defense indoors shooting will be at 20 yards (60 feet). I can almost guarantee you'll go to jail if you shoot someone at 20 yds, even outdoors. You need to be (in most states & situations) a 'reluctant participant' and some states even require you to retreat out the back door of your home if you are able, before resorting to shooting an intruder. If you shoot a 12ga. with ANY choke at 10-15 feet, you get a fist to plate sized cluster - that will be dense enough to shut down any tweeker.

Bottom line, don't believe most of the internet advice you read about lethal defense/deadly force. Do yourself and your family a favor and research your local laws on your own.

Not trying to be an argumentative dick, honestly. I just don't want anyone to go off the deep end.

 

[koifarm]

Koi, I agree that the verbal challenge in my defense plan has a drawback - it gives your position away and that is pretty serious negative. However behind a closed door and being strategically positioned to minimize exposure, a random shot by the bad guy would not likely find it's target. The positives of the challenge is it greatly reduces the chance of killing someone with no intent to cause harm. When I was a kid our neighbor, an elderly widow, woke up to find a strange man sleeping on her couch. He lived a street over and was so drunk the night before he came home to the wrong house. Neighbor forgot to lock door and he came on in. Lucky for him he was not shot and no charges were even pressed against him. Another positive is it helps classify the shooting as a self defense act - especially if the verbal challenge and shot is recorded on the call to law enforcement. Basically if every reasonable effort to not use lethal force was exhausted you are in a pretty good legal position. But I do get your point - in some cases it would not be worth the risk to forfeight your position. You just would have to use your best instincts if a situation presented itself.

I can support and appreciate your feelings on the matter JP, we all have different ideas and theories about how to handle situations. It's really all up to what exactly is happening at the precise time an incident is taking place and although we all have "theories" about how we'd handle any given situation it all boils down to what you actually did in the situation.
I've always thought that running through possibilities is a good way to prepare yourself for any eventuality and that's a good thing, you need to be mentally prepared in order to follow through with any actions. Pre-conceived patterns help you that way. We can all state what we think we might do but until you actually are "in" a given scenario you really don't know how you'll react to it.
Being mentally prepared is the best thing all the way around, as in most cases with all of us who are prepared to protect our lives if the situation needs it, we would hope to never be faced with a life or death situation, it's just not in our make up to want that to happen. If, in fact and reality, it does happen we need to be able to act decisively in order to preserve our own lives.

 

[KingBear]

I have to agree with Kframe on this one. We are reasonable, civilized people, and although we like to feel prepared to defend ourselves "in the gravest extreme", I don't think any of us relishes the thought of taking another life regardless of whether it can be legally or morally justified. It is that presence of conscience which makes us different from the criminals, and our lives more worth preserving should that unfortunate choice have to be made.

I am always amused by what people say they would do, or what others should do, in situations like this, especially when they have never been there themselves. I think they would be surprised by both their reluctance and/or willingness to do what they thought they would or would not do. The people I wonder at the most are those who are opposed to owning guns. Let a mild-mannered soccer mom be confronted by a rapist or, even worse, witness a real threat to her children. She would probably find herself wishing for the biggest nuclear death-star bazooka that Hollywood ever dreamed of.

When I was eighteen or nineteen I found myself alone in the dark in the middle of the night with an intruder at the end of my shotgun, begging me not to shoot. He was a burglar, not an assailant. I didn't shoot but instead let him run for his life, and to this day I am thankful did.

 

[JRMSR]

Okay, so I'm serial posting....................

So, isn't this what the forums for?:chin:

Well let me break this down on a one answer per comment basis; I apologize for the length of response in advance.

To say you'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by six' is like the same stupid 'loud pipes save lives' shit.

Not really, do you think it would be better if you gave an assailant time to shoot, beat or stab you or one of your family members? Would you jeopardize your life or a family members for you're personal vain stupidity? You would allow the same individual to get away and again threaten or commit the same offenses or worse? I would rather allow a jury of twelve to judge me, than not act and end up in a grave or worse, one of my loved ones.

This rest that you comment on isn't worth the discussion, except that your talking about two totally different subjects. The subjects are miles apart in both subject content, context and morality.

If you are in a shooting, even justified, your legal fees will be in the hundreds of thousands, you will probably lose your job (even if justified), etc.

Actually no, a grand jury doesn't even come into the picture until you 're arrested and arraigned for unlawful homicide. You'll appear in front of a "board of inquiry or court hearing" to deem if the shooting was justified or not. If it's justified, you're exonerated from any prosecution. Do you actually understand the laws of, "Castle Doctrine and "USE of Deadly Force?"

The same people that say that are the ones that say you can shoot a guy on your porch and drag him into your kitchen. If you are in a shooting, even justified, your legal fees will be in the hundreds of thousands, you will probably lose your job (even if justified), etc.

I think you were the only one who eluded to this. It would be unlawful unless you were in a state like Texas etc. which allows you to protect your person, land and belongings. Don't really think you would lose your job, when it has no direct correlation and if you were exonerated of any wrong doing. Of course, you'd loose your job if you were convicted of unlawful homicide.

Have you ever shot at varying layers of sheet rock with #4's? I doubt it, because they will certainly penetrate 2 layers.

Oh you bet and allot of other ballistics testing to be sure.

I'm a retired USAF Para Rescue with over 20 years active service. I was also a firearms and self defense specialist, linguist and instructor during that period. with every small arm in the US Military inventory, including many small arms from other NATO and foreign countries inventories. I'm a retired Master Gunsmith trained by the; US Military, Winchester Arms School and Pennsylvania Gunsmith School of Pittsburgh, PA (Summa Cum Laude), where we've done all types of ballistics testing, which include; pattern testing, expansion, deformation, penetration, muzzle velocities, and energy on all types of surfaces including Sheet Rock, metal, wood etc. I also hold a current law enforcement license from the State of Ohio and New Mexico. So you can see the study of firearms and laws have been a mainstay of my life.

Furthermore, no home-defense indoors shooting will be at 20 yards (60 feet). I can almost guarantee you'll go to jail if you shoot someone at 20 yds, even outdoors.

If you go back and reread the quote, I was commenting on the statement made by;

Originally Posted by jphickory
Although not the most lethal choice, No 8's can be the right choice when you need to be concerned about wall penetration and possibly injuring friendlies. Within 20 yards - a direct hit from a 12 gauge firing 8 shot will bring almost anyone down.

20 yards or less is 60 ft, which in any residence with this unobscured distance, is be a good engagement point as long as the assailant is inside the confines of the home. Again, you have to understand the law of self defense as it's written. Also it depends on what state your a resident of.

You need to be (in most states & situations) a 'reluctant participant' and some states even require you to retreat out the back door of your home if you are able, before resorting to shooting an intruder.

You can't shoot anyone from outside your home, as you are no longer under the threat of death and it totally depends which state your in. The term (Most,) is incorrect. These links will give you a quick reference and some incite;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_force
and there are numerous references, training classes, books and web sites on the subject to include; NRA, Gun Owners of America (GOA) and US Department of Justice, just to name a few.

If you shoot a 12ga. with ANY choke at 10-15 feet, you get a fist to plate sized cluster - that will be dense enough to shut down any tweeker.

Not so. A cylinder or open choke has a normal shot dispersion rate from a 20 inch barrel with #8 2 3/4 dram 8 ft in diameter @ roughly 15 yds. A modified choke will likewise disperse a shot pattern of #8 2 3/4 dram 6 ft in diameter @ 15 yds. Full chokes will disperse a pattern of 3 ft in diameter @ 15 yds. So it's not a good choice for self defense.

When you say a "Tweeker," I presume you're saying, an individual on meth amphetamines. This is typically called, a "speed ball or an upper" Being in this state, the individuals nervous system is hyperactive and there are much higher levels of adrenaline. This condition can and often does produce more strength and far less nervous system sensation. So, the individual would be much harder to subdue. It would require a much higher penetration rate, energy, and shock than a #8 shot could render. Hence, #4 or Triple OT Buck.

Do yourself and your family a favor and research your local laws on your own.

I also urge anyone to learn the laws of your state regarding use of; deadly force, castle doctrine and self-protection/defense. This should be a basic responsiblity of anyone who entertains the thoughts of home self-defense.

I will say this in closing, if you're not prepared to do what's necessary to protect your family and home, then you should retreat if possible. However, this scenario is highly unlikely to occur. If you can't, you or another member of your family will be caught up in the situation, could be severely injured or killed and it's foolish to think they won't. One of the first things which is taught in personal firearms self-defense courses and CFL classes are; avoid and remove yourself if possible. If it's unavoidable, then you shoot to kill, not to wound.

 

[Kframe]

Well let me break this down on a one answer per comment basis; I apologize for the length of response in advance.

Great credentials, but you can still be wrong or give bad advice.
You talk about the 'Castle Doctrine' as though it is universal. If you actually research gun laws and the use of deadly force, it VARIES state by state. So, what may be legal in TX may not apply in NY. Also, we have Canadians, Australians and other nations represented here, so, keep in mind that what you assert about your locale is, well, pretty limited in scope.

What I meant by the comparison of the 'judged by 12' to 'loud pipes' is that most cliches and catchy sayings are bandied about by fools. The same fools that say you can shoot 'em on the porch and drag them inside. That was my point and that is how this is relevant to the debate.
Of course I'd rather face a jury than end up dead, but to toss around cliches makes one sound like a bloodthirsty ignoramous, at least, to a jury.

It is unwise to assume that if you commit a justifiable homicide, that the cops, grand jury and prosecutor will agree and not file charges. For example, what if the house is dark, you walk into the same room as an assailant/burglar and he says he's going to kill you, so you shoot him. Unfortunately, you couldn't see that he had his back to you as he was rummaging through the knicknacks. Now you've shot a guy in the back. You will go to trial, it will cost you money. Granted, that is a weird example, but weird things happen in deadly situations, things you don't expect.

One thing you posted I do reject completely, regarding the spread of shot:

Not so. A cylinder or open choke will disperse a normal shot pattern from a #8 2 3/4 dram @ 8 ft in diameter, over 15 ft. A modified choke will likewise disperse a shot pattern of #8 2 3/4 dram 6 ft in diameter @ 15 ft. Full chokes will disperse a pattern of 3 ft in diameter @ 15 ft. So it's not a good choice for self defense.

With my 870, cyl choked, shooting 2 3/4 dr #8's, put 90%+ of the load into a 12 inch circle at 15 feet, with the balance of pellets within a 3 feet diameter. No 12ga I've ever seen/shot spreads to 8 FEET within 15 feet.


Listen, I'm not trying to start a pissing match with you, just saying that the general culture is not warm and fuzzy toward those that kill intruders, so don't expect a pat on the back and no hassles.

There is no single 'best' or 'worst' cartridge/firearm combo for home defense. It depends on whether you're in an apt, a single detached home, a quad, a highrise, in the ghetto, out on the prairie, etc.
For me, with the assessment I've done in my own setting, I feel that #8's (3" max dram) are an appropriate choice.
:usa:

 

[jphickory]

A full choke barrel, regardless of gauge, is supposed to put 70% of the shot in a 30" circle at 40 yards. At 15 feet a full choke will shoot approx 5" hole with few flyers.

 

[JRMSR]

Great credentials, but you can still be wrong or give bad advice.......... :usa:

Great credentials, but you can still be wrong or give bad advice.

I'm quoting US and state law verbatim. So, then those laws must be wrong?

You talk about the 'Castle Doctrine' as though it is universal. If you actually research gun laws and the use of deadly force, it VARIES state by state.

Think I already said this so there's no argument.

Also, we have Canadians, Australians and other nations represented here, so, keep in mind that what you assert about your locale is, well, pretty limited in scope.

I think it's pretty obvious we are talking about the US and I'm not really concerned about other countries at this point, especially since no one from another country has chimed in.

What I meant by the comparison of the 'judged by 12' to 'loud pipes' is that most cliches and catchy sayings are bandied about by fools. The same fools that say you can shoot 'em on the porch and drag them inside

Never stated this at all. It's unlawful without a doubt and I already stated this.

It is unwise to assume that if you commit a justifiable homicide, that the cops, grand jury and prosecutor will agree and not file charges.

As I already stated, you'll be brought to a hearing or court of inquiry before you're charged with unlawful homicide. It is during this proceeding it will be determined if it was justified or not. From there you can either be charged or not. It is only after this court of inquiry or hearing will a grand jury be required or not. Grand Jury's don't file charges. Law enforcement do not file charges.

For example, what if the house is dark, you walk into the same room as an assailant/burglar and he says he's going to kill you, so you shoot him. Unfortunately, you couldn't see that he had his back to you as he was rummaging through the knicknacks. Now you've shot a guy in the back. You will go to trial, it will cost you money. Granted, that is a weird example, but weird things happen in deadly situations, things you don't expect.

I'm not quoting from hypothetical situations or examples, only the law as it's written and I'm not going down the road of; if's, should or could haves. It's all imaginary.

One thing you posted I do reject completely, regarding the spread of shot:

With my 870, cyl choked, shooting 2 3/4 dr #8's, put 90%+ of the load into a 12 inch circle at 15 feet, with the balance of pellets within a 3 feet diameter. No 12ga I've ever seen/shot spreads to 8 FEET within 15 feet.

What choke, length of barrel are you speaking of. What length shell, dram load, wad and amount of shot? There is a simple formula to determine the basic pattern it will make at a given distance. What I've stated is a general rule of thumb determined by particular calculations. Each shotgun is different based upon it's manufacture, so there's no specific size pattern. You can reference any reloading manual and it will give you basic specifications and performance.

Listen, I'm not trying to start a pissing match with you, just saying that the general culture is not warm and fuzzy toward those that kill intruders, so don't expect a pat on the back and no hassles.

I'm certainly not either, hope you didn't think I was. I never look for a pat on the back for something that's truly necessary. I have a difference of opinion, facts to back it up and I though we are discussing the subject in a direct manner, nothing more. I'm not making arbitrary comments, just stating what is valid and what isn't. If you think it will do the job then, more power to you and I hope you never have to prove it in real life.

As a soldier, I don't look down on anyone who's had to take a life for what's right. I think you'll find though, the general culture of society believes, "a criminal intruder deserves everything he/she gets." But then again I don't presume to have my finger on the pulse of society either. Frankly, I could care less what society thinks, especially when it comes to the protection of my family, myself and my property. If you break into my house you're a criminal and you're not going to leave of your own accord, I promise you. It will be on the flat of your back, by way of the coroners gurney.

There is no single 'best' or 'worst' cartridge/firearm combo for home defense. It depends on whether you're in an apt, a single detached home, a quad, a highrise, in the ghetto, out on the prairie, etc.
For me, with the assessment I've done in my own setting, I feel that #8's (3" max dram) are an appropriate choice

But there are better choices. Ones that will get the job done efficiently and effectively, that's exactly what I commenting on.

 

[Kframe]

No worries, it's all good debate.
I did not think you were trying to start a fight, and neither was I.
I just tend to post something about that in internet debates since we can't hear each other's tone of voice or see body language and I'm just clarifying that it's all good.

Well, we can probably both agree that it's a nice day to go on a motorcycle ride, so I think I'll do just that. :c