Sal Paradise
Hooligan
Oxblood,its not a symptom, it's just the truth. How can there be motorcycle manufacturers without people purchasing new motorcycles?
Cheap Cafe Racer ?
- Thread starter Sal Paradise
- Start date
jphickory
Banned
This is a good article explaining why Apple produces the iPhone in China. It was written by the NYT and therefore has some of the usual bias of the main stream media. It is still a good read. It raises many topics of discussion: the USA's lack of ability to compete in manufacturing, quality of life issues for factory workers in China and Apple's economic justifications of their business decisions.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/b...queezed-middle-class.html?src=me&ref=business
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/b...queezed-middle-class.html?src=me&ref=business
Oxblood
750cc
There is a difference between a well built quality machine and a cheaply built disposable one. American auto and motorcycle manufacturers thrived for years buy building quality machines people wanted to buy new and for those who didn't they had dependable cars for many years down the road. This mentality of new cars/bikes every year I feel is a more recent development of our current disposable latest greatest society.
Oxblood
750cc
Yeah we don't work our children for non-existent wages
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/454/transcript
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4602702...-was-built-part-year-olds-china/#.Tyb1Y1wS29V
Treading awfully close to politics here but I'm gonna throw an excerpt out anyway:
One Foxconn worker Mike Daisey interviewed, outside factory gates manned by guards with guns, was a 13-year old girl. She polished the glass of thousands of new iPhones a day. The 13-year old said Foxconn doesn't really check ages. There are on-site inspections, from time to time, but Foxconn always knows when they're happening. And before the inspectors arrive, Foxconn just replaces the young-looking workers with older ones. In the first two hours outside the factory gates, Daisey meets workers who say they are 14, 13, and 12 years old (along with plenty of older ones). Daisey estimates that about 5% of the workers he talked to were underage. Daisey assumes that Apple, obsessed as it is with details, must know this. Or, if they don't, it's because they don't want to know. Daisey visits other Shenzhen factories, posing as a potential customer. He discovers that most of the factory floors are vast rooms filled with 20,000-30,000 workers apiece. The rooms are quiet: There's no machinery, and there's no talking allowed. When labor costs so little, there's no reason to build anything other than by hand. A Chinese working "hour" is 60 minutes — unlike an American "hour," which generally includes breaks for Facebook, the bathroom, a phone call, and some conversation. The official work day in China is 8 hours long, but the standard shift is 12 hours. Generally, these shifts extend to 14-16 hours, especially when there's a hot new gadget to build. While Daisey is in Shenzhen, a Foxconn worker dies after working a 34-hour shift.
jphickory
Banned
It all raises the question - as a manufacture, how do you compete in the world economy if you do not take every economic advantage available in the production of your product? If Apple doesn't, their competition will, and Apple will fail. And then how is the decision to produce at the lowest cost reconciled with the poor standard of living these factory workers in China contend with? These are very complex questions.
Sal Paradise
Hooligan
I posted that article to facebook. I have never and will never buy an Apple anything as long as they do business like that.
I would be the very first person to buy USA -I only buy Fords. The new Fords are as good as any car in the world. I am a union member. last year I went to several HUGE union rallies. I would rather make the iphones here.
This all gets political and moral. But I don't think its fair to paint all Chinese companies with the same brush. In fact they in the article they are doing all that horrible stuff for an American Company. I have a friend from China who goes back and forth and he is always bragging to me about how much business they do and how great things are there. Its fair enough to bash this company but the way I look at it, in it's entirety, the Chinese make good stuff cheap.
My final point and then I am done is - we all use tons of their products. I wouldn't rule out motorcycles because I feel the Chinese are capable of making a fine product. I do think that in addition to some possible bad consequences their could also be some benefits , like good cheap bikes. But to each his own.
I would be the very first person to buy USA -I only buy Fords. The new Fords are as good as any car in the world. I am a union member. last year I went to several HUGE union rallies. I would rather make the iphones here.
This all gets political and moral. But I don't think its fair to paint all Chinese companies with the same brush. In fact they in the article they are doing all that horrible stuff for an American Company. I have a friend from China who goes back and forth and he is always bragging to me about how much business they do and how great things are there. Its fair enough to bash this company but the way I look at it, in it's entirety, the Chinese make good stuff cheap.
My final point and then I am done is - we all use tons of their products. I wouldn't rule out motorcycles because I feel the Chinese are capable of making a fine product. I do think that in addition to some possible bad consequences their could also be some benefits , like good cheap bikes. But to each his own.
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jphickory
Banned
I understand your principled stance on not buying Apple products Sal - but to be consistent you would have to stop buying all products made in China. Similar work conditions exist in China for virtually everything manufactured there; the working conditions for the manufacture of the iPhone is not unique.
Unions are a definite factor in the loss of manufacturing jobs in the USA.
Unions are a definite factor in the loss of manufacturing jobs in the USA.
Sal Paradise
Hooligan
Well JP if you read what I wrote, I said I did not think it was fair to paint all Chinese companies with the same brush. I think that would be worse than seeming inconsistent. I disagree with your other point as well.
sweatmachine
moped
So Sal, are you gonna pull the trigger on one of these Chinese junkers, or what?
Sal Paradise
Hooligan
Sweat - I am interested in selling them, as in being a dealer and support guy. In a few years I will be eligible for retirement and I will need a new gig. I started this thread to kind of see how people think.
If the Benelli was available , I would seriously consider it, but it's not easy to get.
It seems the Chinese bikes face some resistance, based on what I am reading here. And people feel how they feel and that's that. Motorcycles may be a more emotional purchase than say a phone and image and perception are very important. In addition, the U.S., as many of you correctly point out, is a big bike market. The Chinese have yet to make a lot of mid size bikes.
I suspect that for certain Chinese bikes the reliability and support would not be so much of an issue, based on what I have read elsewhere. But the other factors weigh on me. I may look towards the electric bikes too, such as Zero, another type that for me seems like it has growth potential. Again, that is another type that gets an emotional reaction.
I have to keep that in mind. Personally, I don't have those negative reactions to either type of bike - to me they are just motorcycles. I am looking to see potential for market growth.
If the Benelli was available , I would seriously consider it, but it's not easy to get.
It seems the Chinese bikes face some resistance, based on what I am reading here. And people feel how they feel and that's that. Motorcycles may be a more emotional purchase than say a phone and image and perception are very important. In addition, the U.S., as many of you correctly point out, is a big bike market. The Chinese have yet to make a lot of mid size bikes.
I suspect that for certain Chinese bikes the reliability and support would not be so much of an issue, based on what I have read elsewhere. But the other factors weigh on me. I may look towards the electric bikes too, such as Zero, another type that for me seems like it has growth potential. Again, that is another type that gets an emotional reaction.
I have to keep that in mind. Personally, I don't have those negative reactions to either type of bike - to me they are just motorcycles. I am looking to see potential for market growth.
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sweatmachine
moped
I would like that bike at least 5% more if it said "The Misfit" instead of "Tha Misfit."
Sal Paradise
Hooligan
Return of the Cafe Racers just did a post on Tha bike for Facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/ReturnoftheCafeRacers
http://www.buyatvscheap.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=QM+200+GY
http://www.facebook.com/#!/ReturnoftheCafeRacers
http://www.buyatvscheap.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=QM+200+GY
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Sal Paradise
Hooligan
Jeff,
To answer your question, I decided to buy this bike and but seems they are very hard to get. I did a lot of research, its the same as a Suzuki DR. Lasts a long time, doesn't break, is slow and hard to upgrade. Brand new with a warranty advertised $1695 delivered to your door. I can't get it anywhere. And that is that.
To answer your question, I decided to buy this bike and but seems they are very hard to get. I did a lot of research, its the same as a Suzuki DR. Lasts a long time, doesn't break, is slow and hard to upgrade. Brand new with a warranty advertised $1695 delivered to your door. I can't get it anywhere. And that is that.