Would the real Motorcycle Mechanic please stand up ? ?

[Wheelhorse]

Mike knows what he tells the efi to do but he cant say for sure that the puter on the bike will do what he told it .Something could be wrong he has no control over.

The factory computer comes with a level of yes and no responses programmed into algorithms.

Mike, through careful dynoing and verifying with the wideband is that the new programmed baseline will allow enough wiggle room for new modifications.

Computers have wastegates in a sense. So, if the bike developes a vac leak, the computer will be allowed to alter | add additional fuel up to where the wastegate limit is set to. If the bike runs rich due to running down an extremely dusty path for a long period, it can also alter in the opposite direction. These changes are monitored in what's known as fuel trim values.

So, if I change the air fitler to no box with pods, better flowing exhaust, I've added more air through the engine than the computer's wastegates will allow it to add to bring the burn back down to stoich. Mike looks at that and creates a new starting point in the tables. Doesn't extend the tables, but simply adds a new start value of which it can add or subtract fuel given the atmosphere, temp, and so on.

The fuel trim values...perhaps this is a better way to think of it, as a dog on a leash. If you keep the rope the same, the dog can move back and forth for the given length of rope, however, if you move the stake to a new point, the dog still has the same range, but it can be closer to the operating patrol area where you need the dog to roam.

So when I download the tune, Mike has spent the dyno time figuring out a middle of the road value for the computer's fuel tables starting point. I simply download, erase all adaptabilities load in the new start points and let it readjust (fine tune) itself depending on what all of the sensors are feeding it.

As far as directly spearheading your question, the only way Mike could guarantee the computer is doing what he tells it is to monitor it on a dyno, evalulating the hp/torque output and the A/F ratio. Once it's set, it can only adjust so far ---like an emissons cap limiter on a small engine carb.

When you tune on a dyno, I'm sure you sneak up on a tune, a point to which adding timing no longer adds anymore power or the power gains start to reverse, so you back it off two degrees to leave a safe range on the street. The same goes for A/F ratio, most NA cars you keep around the 12.5 at WOT range to keep them plenty detonation resistant, 13 if you are feeling lucky and anything over I personally don't feel comfortable with.

What I'd like a clear answer on is the 02 sensor removal. If the Triumph computer runs true to OBD2 standards, then it should go into open loop at anything over 80% on the TPS and use preset values. Those presets should not be adapted. I wonder if those values are being changed for some odd reason, causing a once tuned to 12.5 at WOT to go up to say a 14-ish AFR under WOT. I'm just wondering if the 02's are disabled if the computer ever goes into closed loop afterwards.

 

[Chris in NC]

I'm not going to read every post in this thread, but after reading the first couple pages, all I can say is that one thing I like about owning a Bonnie (carb'd versions for me, thank you very much) is the ability to do 95% of the routine maintenance myself. I'm not going to take the head off, but I've done damned near everything else.

The other option is to pay $75+ per hour for someone else to do it..

 

[mikenva]

wheel thats the main thing I dont like about the efi they put on these bikes. It has noway i can see of checking its self as far as a/f goes at the openings the O2 is not used.So it has noway for it or you to know you are getting the a/f that the map should be giveing it.That is why I think it would be better to check behind it with a a/f meter.
If its right your good to go.If its wrong then you need to see whats not normal with your bike .You know as well as I do you can have a map sensor or something thats out of spec but still runs ok.But change the fuel and timeing and it being out of spec might push you over the line.Its allway better to be safe than sorry.

 

[Wheelhorse]

wheel thats the main thing I dont like about the efi they put on these bikes. It has noway i can see of checking its self as far as a/f goes at the openings the O2 is not used.So it has noway for it or you to know you are getting the a/f that the map should be giveing it.That is why I think it would be better to check behind it with a a/f meter.
If its right your good to go.If its wrong then you need to see whats not normal with your bike .You know as well as I do you can have a map sensor or something thats out of spec but still runs ok.But change the fuel and timeing and it being out of spec might push you over the line.Its allway better to be safe than sorry.

Mike,

The computer, due to many policing agencies, always has a system of checks and balances. EPA doesn't like us dirtying the air any more than it already is LOL.

When you turn the key to the on position, the computer says hello to such friends as:
MAP Sensor ( two of them ) Helps with the calculation of small engine loads in addition to the TPS.
Baro---how's the atmospheric pressure today
Ambient Temp sensor --- brrr it's cold out there, better add a bit more fuel.
TPS---are we in a clear flood mode
Crank sensor---have things begun to move yet
Oil temp sensor---helps to also fine trim hot and cold start up


These fine pals inform the computer, as you can see there are many, so it can utilize the keep alive mem and adjust where it needs to start its day. This is what all those fancy pants engineers have programmed into the computer for us, with the addition of adaptable stratagies---to a point.

As far as knowing whether or not your receiving the right A/F ratio is no different than with a carb. There's nothing stock on a carb bike saying woah pal, are you asking for a hole in the piston today? A wideband would let the rider know in both cases. A careful ear would listen for the marbles, but as you know, most people have no idea what detonation sounds like, nor the silver flakes on the plug ceramic | insulator. Reading plugs is an art all in itself, but an art worth knowing if you want to tune for the best. I won't rabbit trail any further on that subject.

What I need to find is a Triumph Diagnostic Tool User Guide. It is suppose to go into greater detail of the computer system's strategy. OF course this may be "secret" information.

I also read that there is a limp-home mode as I had suspected as there should be to be in compliance with OBD2, at least according the the FSM. The scary part is performance may only be "marginally" affected to the point of the rider barely noticing a difference...other than hopefully the little check engine light should be illuminated.

Are there more things that could affect a bike's performance in a fuelie set up; definitely. Does a fuelie set up require a modern handle on electrical diagnosis; to a degree.

If you want to tune on a fuelie setup, you still have to have a handle on basic timing curves (strategies) and fuel strategies. Instead of the enrichment being in the jet and needle, it's now located within tables in a program.

If you simply want to keep a fuelie going, all one needs to know is how to read and follow directions...for the most part.

 

[strokerlmt]

I'm not going to read every post in this thread, but after reading the first couple pages, all I can say is that one thing I like about owning a Bonnie (carb'd versions for me, thank you very much) is the ability to do 95% of the routine maintenance myself. I'm not going to take the head off, but I've done damned near everything else.

The other option is to pay $75+ per hour for someone else to do it..

Chris I am with you.......I like my 2003 engine and the fact that I can do most of the work. Simple is nice and my engine runs better than it did when new.
LMT

 

[78gold]

Thanks

Whew what a long thread,

I can only speak about my experiences and that is whenever I have a question their seems to be a myriad of answers and I then work my way through it.

I had an electrical issue recently and no idea what was causing it. So I posted here and on another trumpy site. Got a whole host of answers from Battery to relay to ignition to CDI unit etc, so after considering options ran a number of recommended diagnostic checks and eventually sourced the problem. The only thing I have ever wasted money on was an $8.00 relay and I only bought that so that I would not have to go out again if that was the issue.

As far as performance mods I havn't done much other that remove AI, K &N Filter, Thundersport Pipes and rejetting.

I had no hope without the help from people on here so thanks guys.

Sporty One, will be riding Bonnie up to GC on 17th Feb (About 800k's each way) with a couple of mates, put on some decent weather fior us will ya.

Regards
Nigel

 

[mikenva]

wheel I agree with what you say .You made the one point I have been telling the efi guys since they came out.If the a/f is not right with what the puter thinks it should be none of the adj the puter makes will be right.So in that one case its no better then a carb bike.The more high tech efi systems on other late model vec have on the fly checks on a/f.What triumph uses is kinda late 80s early 90s tech.But these are not big $ bikes in the first place.

 

[Wheelhorse]

wheel I agree with what you say .You made the one point I have been telling the efi guys since they came out.If the a/f is not right with what the puter thinks it should be none of the adj the puter makes will be right.So in that one case its no better then a carb bike.The more high tech efi systems on other late model vec have on the fly checks on a/f.What triumph uses is kinda late 80s early 90s tech.But these are not big $ bikes in the first place.

Factory dual widebands would have been a supersweet set up, but yes, for the most part, we have a 1986-88 Ford Mustang speed density set up with multiplexing.

If I ever find a dealer nice enough to share a user's guide with me, I'll let you know just how much relavance the 02 actually plays in this system.

 

[mikenva]

Would be nice to know.makes you wonder if it sees the a/f not right at idle if it adjust the map all the way through or just gives a trouble code and kicks into limp map.I have seen both on other vec.triumph doesnt want us to know much about there stuff.I dont think any of us even know what the real timing is on our bikes and as loose as the pick up mounts I bet there not all the same.I find it crazy the way they set it up the carb bikes have 3 trigger bumps on the alt.Why the hell 3, I dont know.1 is all they needed.

 

[Stars&Bars]

I know there are schools like MMI and UTI that teach specialized Motorcycle Mechanics and they both seem to include all the major rice burning brands and then you pick to specialize in either BMW or Harley-Davidson. But where do Triumph Dealers hire their technicians from or where would their tech's get specialized factory training working on Trumpets? Georgia? Anyone know?

 

[DandyDoug]

MMI & UTI plus the other trade type schools teach the basics of mechanics theory with some hands on. Most have specialty courses for specific brands and are some times supported by the brand a bit.

All the owners of motorcycle shops hire technicians based upon their own individual needs and hope they have some solid basic skills when hired. After they prove themselves for a while , they may be sent to brand specific training at places run by the brand.

It costs the dealers a bunch of money to send these folks out for training and is required by their franchise agreement. Unfortunately these younger tech's are always on the move and the dealer takes a hit when they move on for a few cents more in a pay check or what ever reason .

 

[Wheelhorse]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that any automotive mechanic or tech worth their tools will easily be able to adapt to motorcycles.

Outside of manufacturer training, MMI and UTI are great for people who have no idea which end of the screw driver to hold.

The real sucker punch to the customer is most, not all motorcycle mechs, are parts changers.

The highly skilled electricians or diagnosticians realize that the max 14 dollars an hour isn't worth their skillset and move onto cars where they can make 24+ bonus ,an hour, as a good tech. Bikes aren't a necessity here in the States and people are less willing to pay to have them worked on or upkept.

You will find do-ers in the cycle world, meaning they do it because it works and makes people happy, but may not have a true, in-depth understanding of how it all works. Sometimes they do it by garage engineering; keep trying until they get it.

 

[mikenva]

A good mechanic can work on anything.To be a good mechanic you have to know basics on how things work that you can learn in school.But they cant teach you what you learn with years of on hands work.A good mechanic never stops learning ,in there life they go to more schools then most doctors and read more books then they want to.
People love a mechanic when they need him then talk about him being a crook when they dont lol.I use to do work for a doctor that had a bunch of classic cars.He loved to give me crap every time I gave him a bill.One day I told him hey look what you charge and if you mess up you can barry your mistakes.He smiles and says yea thats true but tell you what next time you rebuild a motor for me let me see you do it running.We both cracked up.