Would the real Motorcycle Mechanic please stand up ? ?

[sportyone]

In response to the OP for wanting exact answers; there are no exact answers when it comes to tuning performance. I once sync'd a set of carbs (after a dip and rebuild), ran over to an identical bike and the sync was off...EVERY engine is a little different. Not only that, depending on where the atmosphere is at for the day, baro, humidity yada yada, there's always a little tweaking to be had. What is perfect for one, may only get another in-the-ball-park.

seems everyone has missed my drift,
My suggestion was for a simple chart to be had that if you start with a standard carb'd Bonneville & one for EFI model too & if were to follow 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 mod improvements,
you'd will end up with a fun bike that produces 70 odd+ HP or whatever:ride:

simple & as I said close enough for most to have a fun performing bike ? :up:

don't really care if our bikes vary from bike to bike, it wouldn't be by much, given you start with a basic Bonneville, & follow these few simple instructions including the jet sizes etc,
I still believe it would close enough & suit most owners. or at least be a good starting point ?

why does everyone want to cloud the horizion ?

 

[2Monkeys]

There is more than enough info on this site, and from various vendors, to figure out a good base line and where to start fine tuning. If you want that info search for it and think about it then decide what you want and are willing to do. In short if you want a list make it your self.

 

[thearcticsea]

...In short if you want a list make it your self.

Thumbs up.

 

[Wheelhorse]

seems everyone has missed my drift,
My suggestion was for a simple chart to be had that if you start with a standard carb'd Bonneville & one for EFI model too & if were to follow 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 mod improvements,
you'd will end up with a fun bike that produces 70 odd+ HP or whatever:ride:

simple & as I said close enough for most to have a fun performing bike ? :up:

don't really care if our bikes vary from bike to bike, it wouldn't be by much, given you start with a basic Bonneville, & follow these few simple instructions including the jet sizes etc,
I still believe it would close enough & suit most owners. or at least be a good starting point ?

why does everyone want to cloud the horizion ?

Forgive me if I'm off base on this, but don't most of our awesome vendors pretty much supply this information? Especially if you were ordering from them?

One thing I have noticed regarding our retro-cruisers, is that there is NOT a shootout, persay, as you would find in a typical automobile rag.

Vendors are you listening?

For instance, take a stock carb bonnie, run a muffler shootout, or copyright the info and post it up...8 different slip on's. OF course this could turn into a jet changing headache, but I believe this is what Sporty is starting to hint at. A sound vs. HP trade off.

To go a bit deeper, I think you are looking for a project list as to achieve different levels of performance clearly spelled out with the all appropriate parts to run ball park. The combos are many, and half of the time, seem to be more of a sound preference than all out performance. Again, I believe any of our vendors who do in-house tuning, can provide you with exactly what you're after, and if you buy their products (work with them) I'm sure they would help you to better dial in your ride. Plus this helps to keep these guys around R&D-ing for our sakes.

I can't speak for anyone else, but in just a few days I've gathered that there's pretty much step one.

ARK--by the box with pods or choose your own.
SAIR--poor boy set up (bellacorse), run drag specialty 02 plugs or one of the fancier sets up from our vendors.
slip on's This is full of options...Dom Touring/Torque for this guy
Tune -for fuelie boys Jet's for the carbies.
10-14 rwhp depending on the parts you pick
Roughly $7-800

Next step: ignitor advance
Next step: complimentary cams (or carbs for carb'd guys) add cams later. IT seemed to be pretty close between cams and carbs for hp improvement, with carbs being easier to swap. After one, both, or all three, plan on more jetting and tuning.

These mods add UP TO 8 realistic rwhp...Up To means it doesn't have to give you anything, but some results have shown as much as 8.

Next step becomes a lot pricer at tearing into the engine.

My Bonnie:
I bought my bike, rode it 5 miles and tore into it for the winter.

I had a project list planned as to where I want to go with the bike. This keeps me on track and on budget. For me, it seemed pretty straight forward, hack the stock box, fit DNA pods (Also ordered OBD2 Pieman cable for a later to be purchased tune #11), remove air injection, throw on a set of Dom Touring, and figure a real world 65 rwhp give or take a few.

When I get bored, I'll add a little kick with the ignition advance set up.

Maybe 813 cams later on.

I figured before cams however, I'd dial in the suspension.

Maybe somepoint I might like a gel seat.

Tires---thinking of Sport Demons. Avon's tend to crack, so no deal. Super sticky with a 5000 mile limit. AT only 1400 miles, the two previous owners simply super slabbed it and the back tire is already squaring off (Metzlers are out)...I like to have this stuff planned out. So much for buying the bike because of its radials.

Your matrix heirarchy of performance:

While a matrix would look good to justify the metrics of parts combined (would make white-collar mgmt. happy), it still would be teetering on the nebulous side. There are a lot of different paths to take in order to achieve the same level of rwhp gains.

 

[mikenva]

sporty you are missing what we said there is no std tune that will make every bike run good and in alot of cases even run rideable.There are just to many things that come into play.You cant tune a bike on one side of the world and know it will run right on the other.If you hot rod anything you better know how to tune it yourself or know someone you can get to do it for you.
If you took all the carbs setups from all the forums threw out all the ones that dont have a clue what the a/f is through out the throttle openings you would still have many setups for the same mods take that times all the pipes made for these bikes and it would drive you crazy .Spend the money buy a a/f meter learn how to tune your own bike.Thats how we do it over here and it works.If you get the a/f numbers right no mechanic on earth can do it any better.
As far as what parts to use some like these pipes some like other pipes.All of the best pipes are loud some dont like loud.Air box is kinda a no brainer.then we get into what filters you use with what pipes.Then we do cams and change the set up again ,then theres timing that changes things to .Then we do head work about 100 different ways that really changes things.we change carbs or throttle body and that gives you about another 100 things.
So how do we get there ? We make a plan for what we want to end up with.buy parts as we the money .We buy them all from a place that knows how to build these motors,We tell the guy we buy them from what our plan is so we get everything that works good together.when we get the parts we put them on then get the bike tuned with a a/f meter and a dyno .We now know we have what we wanted and its tuned right then we run the piss out of it for many miles with a smile on our face.

 

[sportyone]

There is more than enough info on this site, and from various vendors, to figure out a good base line and where to start fine tuning. If you want that info search for it and think about it then decide what you want and are willing to do. In short if you want a list make it your self.

Fine, see, even then it's not simple, "go search for it" has been the common answer on here all the time, more time consuming, wading through posts not knowing what is fact & what is not !
thanks for your input, can't understand why when someone suggests an idea, particuary if not from CA or the USA, many of you answer with a smart arse attitude. :fight3:
I will keep my ideas & input to myself in future, it was a real simple question, suggestion & a simple answer, but with the exception of a few, I had to repeat it several times before it was fully understood by some.

Wasn't really needing it for my machine, but having been there & gone though all the time & money consuming hype about tuning advise & mod suggestions, just wanted to simplify things for new Bonneville owners. :ride:
but who on here gives a sh#t about new owners ?
I realise now, at this place it's better to sit on the side someplace & try to pick out the facts, rather than be involved & have any input. SUA l'm going riding ! :up:

 

[sportyone]

sporty you are missing what we said there is no std tune that will make every bike run good and in alot of cases even run rideable.There are just to many things that come into play.You cant tune a bike on one side of the world and know it will run right on the other.If you hot rod anything you better know how to tune it yourself or know someone you can get to do it for you.
If you took all the carbs setups from all the forums threw out all the ones that dont have a clue what the a/f is through out the throttle openings you would still have many setups for the same mods take that times all the pipes made for these bikes and it would drive you crazy .Spend the money buy a a/f meter learn how to tune your own bike.Thats how we do it over here and it works.If you get the a/f numbers right no mechanic on earth can do it any better.
As far as what parts to use some like these pipes some like other pipes.All of the best pipes are loud some dont like loud.Air box is kinda a no brainer.then we get into what filters you use with what pipes.Then we do cams and change the set up again ,then theres timing that changes things to .Then we do head work about 100 different ways that really changes things.we change carbs or throttle body and that gives you about another 100 things.
So how do we get there ? We make a plan for what we want to end up with.buy parts as we the money .We buy them all from a place that knows how to build these motors,We tell the guy we buy them from what our plan is so we get everything that works good together.when we get the parts we put them on then get the bike tuned with a a/f meter and a dyno .We now know we have what we wanted and its tuned right then we run the piss out of it for many miles with a smile on our face.

ok :flag:

 

[PieMan]

You cant tune a bike on one side of the world and know it will run right on the other.

Bullshit Mike, this is standard form with bike manufacturers and it works the same with my EFI tunes.

The carb'd twins left the factory all jetted the same depending on model, no matter where they went in the world and the same for the EFI models, except for the Brazil tunes, but that is due to different fuel used.

 

[jphickory]

Sporty - I'm from the USA and understand your point and it is not unreasonable. A chart could be made up like you suggested. Ideally it would give prospective buyers an organized method to consider various modifications and what respective performance benefits would likely be gained. Final performance tweaking would still often be required due to the individual variables that are always present - but it would still be a helpful tool. An outline like this would take effort and knowledge and would most likely be created by a vendor that is motivated by the potential of increased sales as a result of his effort.

 

[sportyone]

Sporty - I'm from the USA and understand your point and it is not unreasonable. A chart could be made up like you suggested. Ideally it would give prospective buyers an organized method to consider various modifications and what respective performance benefits would likely be gained. Final performance tweaking would still often be required due to the individual variables that are always present - but it would still be a helpful tool. An outline like this would take effort and knowledge and would most likely be created by a vendor that is motivated by the potential of increased sales as a result of his effort.

thank you, finally someone can see, that's all I'm on about. :c

 

[thearcticsea]

I don't think anyone gave you an attitude. I think some people, myself included, took a little exception to your statements about "real motorcycle mechanics" having it over us do it yourselfers.

After all, your thread title wasn't "we should make a flow chart for mods" it was "would the real motorcycle mechanics please stand up". The flip side of that statement being, of course, "all you amateurs please sit down."

I think regardless of your intention you came off right out of the gate sounding kind of elitist and people didn't like it because, like myself, we've all spent hours and hours working together to build our bikes up the way we want them. And I think most of us have achieved our goals using each others primitive brains and skillsets.

Then again, this is just a bike forum. No one wants you to feel mad or rebuked. Just if you want to make a chart, make a chart. We on this site are doing the best we can without owning our own dynamometer!

Although I did have my bike dynod...........

 

[LoVel]

you came off right out of the gate sounding kind of elitist

That is a very nice way to put it.

 

[mikenva]

That is a very nice way to put it.

+1 on that

 

[Wheelhorse]

Bullshit Mike, this is standard form with bike manufacturers and it works the same with my EFI tunes.

The carb'd twins left the factory all jetted the same depending on model, no matter where they went in the world and the same for the EFI models, except for the Brazil tunes, but that is due to different fuel used.

Ok, I know that you and Mikenva are like oil and water, but here's what I think Mikenva was getting at:

Middle of the Road:

Your case in point: all bikes regardless of altitude ship out with the same jetting. Only differentiating factor is alcohol, say E100 as fuel. Obviously, with its much lower BTU 76.1K vs 114K BTU’s of straight gasoline, it would require bigger jetting. However, manufactures have to shoot for a balance of drive-ability, performance and emission standards when it came to carburetors and local availability. Sometimes emissions takes the front seat.

However, Mikenva's point...yes, they will run well (factory stock bikes with canned parts from the parts matrix), but are they squeezing every bit out of them, or is the tune, ball park, as in...well, she runs well enough to keep the people happy; afterall, happy people are important. Not only that, let’s say someone sells a customer a full package, does the customer know | understand enough to really, and I’m stressing really, squeak all that can be squeaked from their machine. Odds are no. Run well, yes; absolute dyno-proven, max-performance at their current location; no. Dyno-proven at the vendor's location, certainly; it is after all why they recommended it. Works within that 1-3 hp limit of excellent drivability vs. max performance; also a thumbs up. For 95% of the people out there, if they feel a nice improvement and it all works well together, they couldn't be happier and Pieman, your reputation far exceeds you on both Bonnie boards I'm on, you're a proven winner.

Back to Mikenva in his thinking in extremes:

In otherwords, is there 1-3 hp left on the table as in only the dyno could reveal? Maybe it's in the mid-range. One to three hp may not be noticed in seat-of-the-pants by the end user, but someone who was not only adamant, but also passionate about squeezing every ounce of HP out of their machine would do well to have it locally dyno'd. Finely-tuned for max-performance if you will. It might have to do with adjusting the float level a half of mm. Again, thinking in extremes.

CV carbs do have some compensation factor designed into them due to the density of the air | altitude dependent diaphragm, pressure into the fuel bowl etc. However, under WOT, the bike should grow slightly richer as you climb every 3000 feet and even a squawk at idle. If I bought my Bonnie locally (600 feet), ride up to Pike’s Peak at 14K feet, I could pretty much guarantee my bike won’t run as well as it had at 600 feet. Again, thinking in extremes; an a-typical situation.

Fuel Injection: Why I enjoy it.

The nice thing is with FRED (Fricken Ridiculous Electronic Device aka SD Computer) is that it too will allow compensation (a learning curve) within its clamping limits. It's why I plan to order up your #11 tune next month.

Bottom line: I find both of you to be correct in your own ways.

 

[mikenva]

Mike (pieman) and I are ok in my book .Sure we dont allways agree but thats how we both learn lol.You are right though wheelhose being close is good enough in most cases.
Unless conds ,fuel or other things push it over the limit to where it wont run good.
As far as the piemans efi tunes go I told him he should start doing them on another forum before he started doing them .Mike is good with that puter stuff lol.
Why am I so picky with tuneing because if I didnt have bad luck I would have no luck at all so I try to have mine dead on the best i can.I think with carbs or efi one is ahead of the game to check the a/f with a a/f meter after every change.Mike knows what he tells the efi to do but he cant say for sure that the puter on the bike will do what he told it .Something could be wrong he has no control over.

 

[B06Tang]

I just got paid for doing a set of rims with tire change and balance from someone. Am I considered a pro/real mechanic now?

Of course payment came in the form of a case of Guinness

 

[geolpilot]

That is what I call a stout fee.

 

[DIRK]

You can not get a bike tuned right going by a chart .Most of the guys that put those things on the net dont know the first thing about tuneing a motor.Jenks knows no more about tuneing a carb then any of the guys here.He use to go on a old forum some of us use to go on he couldnt even tune his own bike lol.
Even a guy with many years tuneing motors cant tune these bikes right with out getting a/f numbers off a meter or hp off a dyno and guess what there not all the same from bike to bike or place to place.On the other hand the guys doing it for a living only cares about it being close enough to get your money,and as far as dealer mechanics go triumph dealers dont have the best mechanics most are mom and pop shops with some guy they dont have to pay much doing the work.
dealer mechanics in most cases dont know jack about doing hp mods.

the carb/efi tuning will of course make a sometimes significant difference in the way the bike runs. here in california it is a $10,000 per incident when anything is changed that does not meet CARB requirements. so if a dealer changes anything (airbox, jetting, pipe) and cannot make the guy happy he could be on the hook. and there are guys out there who cannot be made happy( i do not believe they live in this forum). after 13 if the pipe does not have the california stamp on it you cannot legally fit it to the bike. it is a load of crap but we are stuck. we all want to have the best possible running & performing machine.
please do not lump all dealers in the same pot. most are in the business for the love of motorcycling. some have been working successful shops for 30 to 40 years, and yes one will find a mom and pop shop understaffed with people who do not have a clue. they go away quickly. ask around there are many good shops out there. ok off my soap box.thanks guys

 

[jphickory]

You are only stuck by it because of the politicians your state elects. You are right, unless the voters in your state change the big government pro-regulatory path they are on - it will get nothing but worse for CA.

 

[Wheelhorse]

the carb/efi tuning will of course make a sometimes significant difference in the way the bike runs. here in california it is a $10,000 per incident when anything is changed that does not meet CARB requirements. so if a dealer changes anything (airbox, jetting, pipe) and cannot make the guy happy he could be on the hook. and there are guys out there who cannot be made happy( i do not believe they live in this forum). after 13 if the pipe does not have the california stamp on it you cannot legally fit it to the bike. it is a load of crap but we are stuck. we all want to have the best possible running & performing machine.
please do not lump all dealers in the same pot. most are in the business for the love of motorcycling. some have been working successful shops for 30 to 40 years, and yes one will find a mom and pop shop understaffed with people who do not have a clue. they go away quickly. ask around there are many good shops out there. ok off my soap box.thanks guys

Technically, it's against the law for anyone in the U.S. to alter any emissions equipment whatsoever (unless it's CARB approved). IL goes for far as anything other than OEM is against the law, however, we do not have safety lanes for regular vehicles | motorcycles, nor system check points, so people, for the most part, get away with it.

SAI is illegal
Slip on's for the catted models certainly are illegal
02 removal is illegal
air box removal is illegal

Rubbish...well anything that increases noise level or MAY alter emissions from their original intentions| design is prohibited.

However, if you, or a dealership has the customer sign off on a waiver that the customer understands and acknowledges that their motorbike is exclusively going to be used for off-road competition, then at the very least, the dealership should (no guarantees) be covered with the waiver of liability.

CA is pretty crazy, but I've known a few places to do things for cash with no receipt so there couldn't be any path of liability back to the installer.