My first countersteering

[retrorider]

Countersteering works at all speeds. It's impossible to steer a bike without it. To turn right, you have to steer left long enough for the bike to lean right. Then you turn right just enough to stop the lean at the appropriate angle. Then, when you want to straighten out, you countersteer again, this time to the right, which stands the bike back up. Then you steer straight. You do the same thing on a bicycle, but the effect is so subtle that you don't realize you're doing it. Think back to when you first learned to ride a bike. You had to develop the reflex of turning the handlebars in the direction that the bike was falling to get it to stand back up. That's countersteering.

Countersteering at high speeds almost seems magical. Try riding at 50mph and put a little pressure on the right grip. The bike will slowly drift to the right, even though what you are doing is turning the handlebars to the left. Then put some pressure on the left grip. The bike will drift to the left. Countersteering gives you the control to place the bike within inches of where you want to be.

Now, if the road curves sharply to the right and you have to turn quickly, push hard on the right grip and keep the pressure. The bike will lean to the right and the bike will turn really fast. Depending on the geometry of the bike, you may have to keep pressure on the grip to hold the turn. When you want to pull out, just put pressure on the left grip and the bike will stand back up.

One last tip that you will read in those books; if you're running wide in the turns, I suspect it's because you are looking at the outside of the turn rather than the inside. My son had the same problem. When he turned onto a road, he'd always hit the divider line. That's because he was looking at the line rather than down the road at the center of the lane. It is a truism that the bike goes where your eyes go. If you look at what you are trying to avoid, you are going to hit it. Look deep into the turn and the bike will go there.

Get the video "Ride Like A Pro" by Jerry Palladino. http://www.amazon.com/The-NEW-Ride-Like-Pro/dp/B008J5EE7S/ref=pd_cp_mov_1. He shows you how those motorcycle cops can do a u-turn within a single traffic lane on a big Harley. It's all in the eyes (and a lot of rear brake). The hardest thing on a bike is to make tight turns at slow speeds. The bike does not enjoy the stability of the gyroscopic effect, so you have to control it more carefully. New riders have a tendency to look at the ground, which slows you down and makes the bike fall. If you learn the techniques in the video, you will gain a lot of confidence as you realize how much control you really have.

 

[BlueJ]

....Countersteering ... seems magical. Try .. and put a little pressure on the right grip. The bike will slowly drift to the right, even though what you are doing is turning the handlebars to the left.

Uh.. no, you're pushing the bike over to the right, so that's the way it turns. You're not ever "turning" the wheel to the left, you're "tipping" the bike to the right, and it has no choice to go right.

In fact, other than at extremely low speeds, there's no other way to make it turn. Giving it the name "countersteering" just made it sound scary - it's the same as riding a bicycle.

 

[DandyDoug]

Counter steering is the best way,but not the only way to get the bike to turn.

A good example is to try it at low speed on a bicycle, then wick it up a bit and try it on a motorcycle . You will get the message loud and clear right away.

The folks that think leaning in to a turn is the smoothest/fastest way around a corner are quickly left in your dust. :lame:

 

[retrorider]

Uh.. no, you're pushing the bike over to the right, so that's the way it turns. You're not ever "turning" the wheel to the left, you're "tipping" the bike to the right, and it has no choice to go right.

Nope. They call it "countersteering" because you are steering in the opposite direction that you want to go. You can't make the bike turn to the right by pushing it to the right. Newton's laws say that every action has an opposite and equal reaction. If you try to push the bike to the right, your body will go to the left. It cancels out. The bike will go straight because the center of gravity (you plus the bike) will still be vertical. When you countersteer, you think you are tipping the bike to the right, but you're really pushing the handlebars to the left, which makes the bike fall to the right. Then you stop the bike from falling over by steering to the right. This catches the fall, and the centrifugal force balances the force of gravity. You keep turning until you turn right some more, which causes the centrifugal force to overcome the force of gravity, and the bike raises up to the left. You then steer straight when you are vertical again.

 

[BlueJ]

Everyone tries to make it more complicated than it is. When I took MSF, what I was told (and it works) is: If you want to go to the right, push (gently) with your right hand. The immediate reaction is the bike tips over towards the right and you start turning. When you want to turn less sharp or stop turning, you push with your left hand. The immediate reaction is the bike leans over less to the right, starts turning less, and straightens.

I see where you're going with the notion that pushing with your right hand causes the forks to rotate counterclockwise around their long axis which you could then say is "counter-steering" to the left, but why even bother thinking about "left" at all when you want to go right? Just for the sake of semantics? From the point of view of semantics, "steering" is "to control the course of" or to "direct the course". Since we are talking about going to the right, we are literally "steering" to the right. I agree that the action we perform to steer to the right is to move the handlebars so that the forks turn slightly to the left, and then for all the good physics-based reasons those of us who are interested have read about, the bike goes to (has been steered to) the right. But that's so confusing when you're watching out for those damn deer!!! Just push with your right hand. Easy peasy.



I think folks call it "counter-steering" because they think that "turning the handlebars" is the same as "steering", but clearly that's not the case.

Nope. They call it "countersteering" because you are steering in the opposite direction that you want to go. You can't make the bike turn to the right by pushing it to the right. Newton's laws say that every action has an opposite and equal reaction. If you try to push the bike to the right, your body will go to the left. It cancels out. The bike will go straight because the center of gravity (you plus the bike) will still be vertical. When you countersteer, you think you are tipping the bike to the right, but you're really pushing the handlebars to the left, which makes the bike fall to the right. Then you stop the bike from falling over by steering to the right. This catches the fall, and the centrifugal force balances the force of gravity. You keep turning until you turn right some more, which causes the centrifugal force to overcome the force of gravity, and the bike raises up to the left. You then steer straight when you are vertical again.

 

[thearcticsea]

This whole thread is like talking about the various ways one can take a piss. It just happens naturally. Anyone who's learned how to ride a bike automatically knows "countersteering" whether they know it or not, right?

 

[whyme]

wait a minute...you piss to the left if you want to turn right??

 

[geolpilot]

Push Down!

 

[normandy]

But not too far down or you will piss on your boots.

 

[retrorider]

Ha, ha, ha. Even though countersteering is intuitive, they teach it at the motorcycle safety schools because it is more effective if you do it consciously. When you have to maneuver quickly to get yourself out of trouble it's good to know that you only need to push on one of the grips firmly to get the bike to turn immediately. It's not so important when you're riding a bicycle, because you are so heavy compared to the bike and you can use your own balance to control it. But a motorcycle is much heavier than you are and you need to get the bike to move the way you want it to. It's funny that when they explain countersteering at the course, people immediately start arguing about the physics of it. It seems illogical at first, and so you get lots of different points of view. In the end, all you need to know is that it works.

 

[MOSES]

Its simple.
if you wanna go left, push left.
if you wanna go right, push right.
If you wanna turn harder , push harder

Throttle out !

and never hit the front brake in a corner...

Congrats on the bike, They're a blast !

 

[dr_cerebro]

and never hit the front brake in a corner...

Thanks for the advice. I didn't know that.

 

[MOSES]

Thanks for the advice. I didn't know that.

No problem ! :cheers:

 

[dr_cerebro]

and never hit the front brake in a corner...

I was reading an article on Ride Apart, titled: "Riding Skills: How to Safely Handle Decreasing Radius Corners", and this paragraph says:

"Because a decrease radius corner begins gently, then tightens, an advanced rider won’t need to shed speed until they’re well into the corner. And they can do so by employing the front brake only, slowly applying pressure to gently sharpen the suspension geometry and expand the tire’s contact patch. This increases available grip, allowing you to brake and corner at the same time."

I'm a little confused now, my english is a little rusty and maybe I just misunderstood the advise on this article. I do not know if it is advising to brake just about to enter the corner, prior to leaning, or if it says to brake into the corner when leaned. I just have some months of experience riding. I asked my friends and they do not know for sure; some say do not touch the front brake, some say use both brakes. You meant do not touch the front brake, or do not press hard the front brake?

 

[thearcticsea]

People often say not to use the front brake in a turn in any circumstance. That's usually because they're not sure the skill level of the person to whom they're giving advice. This is the safest, general advice.

People who are experienced riders can, and often do, use the front brake while turning. You just need to have great control of every part of the bike to do so safely. Great hand control, great body positioning, and experience knowing what a motorcycle is going to do depending on how hard you brake, move the bars, etc.

Honestly sir, if you're a new rider the best way to learn safe riding is to do so on a dirtbike. They're often much more crashable than road bikes, the dirt isn't as painful as the road, and there's no worries over traffic, etc.

I know not everyone has access to a dirtbike or places to ride one, I'm just saying that in my experience this is really the best way to learn the limits of motorcycles, physics, and your own riding abilities.

 

[Keith Harding]

and never hit the front brake in a corner...
I'd generally agree but it also depends on the corner, individual experience level and the bike.
Certainly it is good advice for the less experienced who can then later dabble with corners and braking as they become more comfortable.

 

[MOSES]

I'll stick to my post. I don't recommend a new rider go hitting the front brake while understanding proper countersteer.
Brake before the turn, prepare, roll into the turn, and Twist out.

19 years on the street. Less reading and more riding ! LOL

Be safe !:ride:

 

[Keith Harding]

"Brake before the turn, prepare, roll into the turn, and Twist out."
Perfect, Moses!

 

[Clyde12]

Less reading and more riding ! LOL

Be safe !:ride:

THIS! I am just getting back into riding after a LONG layoff. I'm finding that I am doing too much thinking. Back in the day I could just ride and it all worked out. Getting old sucks- LOL.

 

[retrorider]

and never hit the front brake in a corner...

I spent six weeks on crutches pondering this principle.

There's a way to brake in a corner. I didn't do it. I panicked when a car pulled out in front of me and I grabbed the brake rather than squeeze gently. In less time than I could say "shit" I was on the ground with the bike on top of me.

BTW, "back in the day" we crashed just as much, maybe more than today. We just look at risk differently when we're older.