EFI Modders should check this out

[Bigted]

Tridays are an Austrian Triumph owners club, apparently the biggest anywhere and every year they sponsor a 'Bonneville build'. This year it was done by an Italian Performance parts maker known as Marcello who is the owner of "Free Spirits Performance".

Some of his "improvements" for the Bonnie are over the top (his claims about the K&N filter) but what surprised me is that he used a new Dobeck TFI unit to adjust fueling. Anyway definitely read about the build, he did some interesting approaches to performance.

A number of guys were after Mr. Dobeck (who founded DynoJet) to make one of these units for the Bonnie, it appears that it has now happened and they are available at Dobecks website. (useful for those afraid of computers/downloads etc):
http://www.electronicjetkit.com/Cruiser/viewproduct.asp?partnumber=8120103

READ ABOUT THE TRIDAY'S 'FREE SPIRIT 12 BONNIE BUILD:
http://www.returnofthecaferacers.com/2012/07/free-spirits-tridays-12-triumph.html

ANYWAY ALL INTERESTING READING.

 

[mikenva]

god they did some dumb things to that bike.the pipes suck do a u do it right out the head that is a real hp killer .the u do it in the intake is stupid to say the lest.

 

[Bigted]

god they did some dumb things to that bike.the pipes suck do a u do it right out the head that is a real hp killer .the u do it in the intake is stupid to say the lest.

I agree. You can see the guy is in the parts business, everything he did required his expensive 'Marcello' parts. He claimed that if free flow filters were used without his $500 intake part to point the filters forward that gains would be negligible. I guess all the guys using pods in North America didn't get that memo.
Then he came up with a super expensive chain to belt conversion to prevent "all those mechanical losses"...I guess the pro sport bike racers didn't get that memo either.
Can't remember what else he did but same $$ bs.
:lol3:

 

[ivar]

and:

Rather than just buying longer shocks we decided to develop these riser blocks for people who want the handling upgrades without replacing the Bonneville's original shock absorbers."

Would be both cheaper and better to ditch the original shocks I'd think...

 

[Wheelhorse]

So this guy invented a injector dwell increaser?

Tuneecu does so much more for free.

 

[Bigted]

So this guy invented a injector dwell increaser?

Tuneecu does so much more for free.

Wrong. TuneEcu does NOTHING without YOU THE OPERATOR plugging in the numbers, do you know what numbers to plug in??? Yes you can change your maps with TuneECU but you require either a pre-made map like those sold by TTP or you need a dyno. Plus you need to be comfortable making, saving and uploading files etc. Then if you change your performance set up you have to go buy a new upgraded map or visit the dyno again. Not the case with the controller. The TuneECU is a good diagnostic tool so you should have it anyway.

Dobeck's EFI controller can be used to adjust your fueling 'on the fly', meaning no need to go home fiddle with a map, load and go back out to road test.
I also see the Dobeck EFI controller is actually a "load based" fueling controller which apparently is more sophisticated than other "piggy backs". It can also be run inline with a wide band O2 sensor and AFR gauge so that you can adjust your fueling/AFR on the fly. (In fact I believe Dobeck offers this as a system for $300 known as the AFR Plus or Gen 4 system which contains their controller, an AFR gauge and a Bosch wideband 02 sensor.)

I'd say thats pretty dam good considering how simple the system is to use.

QUOTE>
The Dobeck controller is one of the only controllers on the market which allows a large range of adjustability without the use of a computer. We like to use the term 'on-the-fly' tuning. You can literally drive the vehicle, make setting adjustments, and instantaneously feel the results. Obviously for safety purposes we recommend you pull over to the side before making adjustments. Some after-market EFI controllers like to claim 'on-the-fly' tuning which to them means toggling only between a couple preset maps. The EJK controller actually has some 11,390,625 available fuel setting combinations in the unit which are accessible without using a computer program to reprogram the unit.

 

[Bigted]

I'm very excited about this new Dobeck Gen 4 system. Adjust your map's AFR on the fly by pushing a button on an air fuel gauge mounted on your handle bar is ground breaking. It is also apparently superior to simply running a dyno produced map.

I have found out from Dobeck that the Gen 4 system for the Bonnie will be released later in the year. The Gen 3.5 is already available.

For a more comprehensible explanation of the new Gen 4 see:


QUOTE:
GEN 4 Product Release

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The wait is over at least for some. Test evaluations have all come back at 100% positive. Production processes are being finalized and we will be shipping GEN 4 units beginning on August 15th for Harley-Davidsons

What is GEN 4?
The new GEN 4 by Dobeck Performance brings together two technologies within one system to make it the most powerful, user-friendly tuning device on the market. GEN 4 combines an EFI controller with a wideband O2 sensor and AFR gauge to provide a user instant fuel trimming ability and feedback about their vehicle’s tuning operation.

WHY BUY THE GEN 4?
Have you ever wondered about how your engine is performing? Even on a stock vehicle you can make improvements to the fuel map and then the majority of us purchase more after-market products to increase performance, fuel mileage, etc. You may purchase an EFI system with a dyno tune-up to correct the fueling, but the question remains at what point when you are driving on the road do you know your engine is running properly (variable load conditions)? The GEN 4 unit offers this feedback through its AFR gauge, but unlike other AFR gauge kits the GEN 4 also allows you to trim the fuel map as needed 'on the fly'.

THE REAL REASON
Whether you own a stock bike, a heavily modified bike, have purchased an EFI system, or have paid for a dyno tune-up the fact still remains you don’t know the quality of your fuel map.

AND THE BIG KICKER FOR THE UNIT...WE ARE OFFERING THE GEN 4 UNIT AT AN INITIAL PRICE OF $300!!!!!

END QUOTE>
--------------------------------------------------------------

I suspect you can also just use the Gen 3.5 controller and mount your own AFR guage and wide band o2 sensor and instead of adjusting the afr through Dobecks Gen 4 AFR guage you would monitor your AFR gauge and adjust via the Gen 3.5 controller.

I will be waiting for the Gen 4 because it is a ground breaking system and very cool.

 

[mikenva]

that may in fact be what you efi guys need to make power.The triumph system is not as high tech as some think it is.In all truth it wont do much more then a carb bike does because of lack of 02 Feed back when you need it most.If that thing works it should be a great deal.

 

[TC_Dick]

that bike is ugly as sin. seems like another instance of "how much shit can we bolt on a bike"..

 

[phil]

Tridays are an Austrian Triumph owners club, apparently the biggest anywhere and every year they sponsor a 'Bonneville build'. This year it was done by an Italian Performance parts maker known as Marcello who is the owner of "Free Spirits Performance".

Some of his "improvements" for the Bonnie are over the top (his claims about the K&N filter) but what surprised me is that he used a new Dobeck TFI unit to adjust fueling. Anyway definitely read about the build, he did some interesting approaches to performance.

A number of guys were after Mr. Dobeck (who founded DynoJet) to make one of these units for the Bonnie, it appears that it has now happened and they are available at Dobecks website. (useful for those afraid of computers/downloads etc):
http://www.electronicjetkit.com/Cruiser/viewproduct.asp?partnumber=8120103

READ ABOUT THE TRIDAY'S 'FREE SPIRIT 12 BONNIE BUILD:
http://www.returnofthecaferacers.com/2012/07/free-spirits-tridays-12-triumph.html

ANYWAY ALL INTERESTING READING.

that some pretty cool stuff.. good post

 

[Craigore]

the elbows are kind of cool. not $500 cool though. I've got some old bmw manifolds laying around the shop that may do the same thing. I'll give it a try.

 

[RumRunner]

Well they have some interesting thoughts there. It would be interesting to see some actually independent testing on some of those things. The Air intakes look very interesting, I wonder how they actually work though since their not designed as an actual scoop. It would be interesting to see when if ever they went positive pressure. I like the looks of the exhaust going under the seat, but the bends appear to be very tight, and it doesn't make any sense to not run a stepped pipe at that point.

 

[henrys]

Wrong. TuneEcu does NOTHING without YOU THE OPERATOR plugging in the numbers, do you know what numbers to plug in???

How would this controller be any different? It still needs to be tuned to a proper air/fuel ratio. Also, it only tunes fuel. There's a lot of power to be had by tuning ignition timing which this device cannot do. TuneECU can...

 

[Bigted]

How would this controller be any different? It still needs to be tuned to a proper air/fuel ratio. Also, it only tunes fuel. There's a lot of power to be had by tuning ignition timing which this device cannot do. TuneECU can...

You must not have read all of the info Henry. It's the bike that needs to be tuned to the proper afr not the controller, the controller does the tuning. Granted, this system does not cover ignition timing but then ignition timing overall is a much simpler thing to adjust for for increased power than constructing complicated fuel maps as I understand it. Remember they used to take care of ignition right off of their handlebars years ago. Nor are you taking into consideration those pre made map shortcomings where correct air fuel ratio is concerned.

Tune ecu can be used to mildly adjust the ignition by a couple of degrees in that part of the RPM/ throttle opening where it helps.

Note, I'm not knocking TuneECU, I think its the greatest thing since sliced bread, I have it myself. But ...you cannot sit at home, open your tuneecu and simply twist a knob until you see a guage indicating an afr rating that you want to achieve. However you can do this with the Dobeck Gen 4 system while you're actually riding and able to feel the changes and see it on an AFR meter while doing it.

This system has an inline AFR tuneable AFR gauge....it is not simply an AFR guage, this is the ground breaking element here. Also, unlike all other controllers it is supposed to be a controller that is "load based" tuneable, whereas other controllers pretty much cue off of RPM and throttle position only and are unable to account for load changes and are therefore less accurate. Most dyno built m,aps are also not load based as far as I understand it. (I'm not a tuning pro or even a good mechanic.)

In anycase this Mr. Dobeck is supposed to be the real thing, the majority of aftermarket "brand name" controllers are actually manufactured by Dobeck as far as I understand; he invented the Dyno jet system too along time ago. This air fuel 'load based' on the fly 'tuning' system by way of an AFR guage capable of being used to adjust your AFR while riding is his newest. I don't know about you but I think that's quite something.

 

[Bigted]

Also, it occurs to me that a pre-made map that you buy is not able to account for the changes (or the variable spec tolerances) that I suppose take place over time in your injector wear and fuel pump as well as the important oem sensors (air temp, oil temp, air pressure) that are otherwise used during open loop, nor can it account for gasoline quality as far as I understand it not to mention the state of your air filter at any given time.

According to Mikeenva other variables that can't be addressed by a pre-made map which have a bearing on a/f from one bike to the next are valve and ring seal conditions, cam timing and head flow. I don't know how much of an effect any of the above variables can have such that a pre-made map is left really wanting though. Its food for thought though.

With a bought map you are running in open loop and strict map references for most of the ride (94% of throttle opening). With the Dobeck "AFR Plus Gen 4 system" you are running in an adjustable, on the fly, closed loop, wide oxygen sensor system (for as long as you want to that is) which unlike the map can be easily adjusted to take care of all of the above variations and on a near real time basis no less.

I think this is as good as it gets especially considering its simple to use operation and its forecast $300 price tag.

 

[henrys]

I have a lot of EFI tuning experience and what you fail to realize is that O2 sensors wear out and fail. Especially on a motorcycle with no catalytic converters. I would never trust my EFI system to rely on a closed loop air/fuel system at wide open throttle. There are simply too many variables. Also bikes need to be simple and for the $ you spend on this system you can have your tune ecu map custom tuned on a dyno for maximum power.

As far as the ecu not accouting for changing variables neither do carbs and they have worked great for years. I'd prefer to not over complicate things. I'm running a pieman map on my bike and it's awesome. It was well for the $ and it's only 1/3 the cost of this device.

 

[mikenva]

henry do you have a a/f gauge on your bike? If not how do you know what your a/f really is in real time.I dont think many of the guys running efi on these bikes has ever seen what there a/f is.

 

[henrys]

henry do you have a a/f gauge on your bike? If not how do you know what your a/f really is in real time.I dont think many of the guys running efi on these bikes has ever seen what there a/f is.

I have a wideband o2 sensor that I use for tuning my cars. Honestly I've never put it on my bonneville. The map I use works runs so smooth I haven't really had the desire to hook it up. I use the wideband to tune my cars and then I take it off. I would never rely on it to actively adjust the air/fuel on the fly. Wideband O2's (as opposed to narrow band) are very finicky and I've been through 3-4 of them tuning my turbo cars. These sensors do fail and when they do, I don't want my fuel injection system relying on it.

Besides, on a street bike do you really need to know what the air/fuel ratio is at all times? Is that something you're really going to constantly chase to pin down to a certain ratio? What ratio are you going to set it to? How do you know that ratio is producing the most power without putting it on a dyno? I think this device would be great on a race bike but it's totally overkill for a street bike. I practice the KISS philosphy; Keep It Simple, Stupid.

 

[Bigted]

I have a lot of EFI tuning experience and what you fail to realize is that O2 sensors wear out and fail. Especially on a motorcycle with no catalytic converters. I would never trust my EFI system to rely on a closed loop air/fuel system at wide open throttle. There are simply too many variables. Also bikes need to be simple and for the $ you spend on this system you can have your tune ecu map custom tuned on a dyno for maximum power.

As far as the ecu not accounting for changing variables, neither do carbs and they have worked great for years. I'd prefer to not over complicate things. I'm running a pieman map on my bike and it's awesome. It was well for the $ and it's only 1/3 the cost of this device.

Ha ha, actually Henry I do realize (as I'm pretty sure the Dobeck engineers realized) that o2 sensors wear out. The 02's do not need to be always on.

With all due respect the system's advantages in terms of its simplicity and useability by the average Joe as well as how it works and its ability to deal with those factors that impinge on a motorcycle's air fuel ratio appears to have gone over your head.

1. Please don't upgrade either your pipes, cam, heads, pistons, porting, compression ratio or intake as you will be due back to the dyno for another $300 session or will have to purchase a new map. Therefore when upgrading your bike Henry please be sure to do everything at the one time otherwise you are going to be buying lots of maps or dyno sessions as you upgrade (that is if you are lucky enough to have a dyno within 500 miles, not everyone is so lucky.)

2. The fact that you say above "As far as the ecu not accounting for changing variables, neither do carbs" indicates you aren't getting it.

Actually your ecu does account for "changing variables", just not all of them. Also at least with carbs you can actually pull over take out your screw driver and make adjustments when running poorly; you can do the same thing with the Gen 4 with the greater accuracy of the supplied AFR gauge. You can't do it with a bought map.


3. "I would never trust my EFI system to rely on a closed loop air/fuel system at wide open throttle. There are simply too many variables."
Not sure what that even means?? In actual fact EFI systems are great because they are so good at dealing with many variables (multiple sensor based system). However it is the ability to adjust for other important "variables" that makes the new system ground breaking.

PS. I don't have all your efi tuning experience Henry and correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it the case that you actually do have to "rely on a closed loop a/f system at wide open throttle with wideband sensors" when you get any map made. How can you make a map without running in a closed loop wide open throttle with wideband o2's scenario.


No one is suggesting that bought maps aren't great, they are, they make things very simple and I think they're great. This is not an anti pre-made map campaign.
Just as the most free flowing pipes aren't for everyone, TORS are also great. We get it, you think pre-made maps are the pinnacle of efi tuning all else = poo poo. No need to follow up.



.

 

[Bigted]

I have a wideband o2 sensor that I use for tuning my cars. Honestly I've never put it on my bonneville. The map I use works runs so smooth I haven't really had the desire to hook it up. I use the wideband to tune my cars and then I take it off. I would never rely on it to actively adjust the air/fuel on the fly. Wideband O2's (as opposed to narrow band) are very finicky and I've been through 3-4 of them tuning my turbo cars. These sensors do fail and when they do, I don't want my fuel injection system relying on it.

Besides, on a street bike do you really need to know what the air/fuel ratio is at all times? Is that something you're really going to constantly chase to pin down to a certain ratio? What ratio are you going to set it to? How do you know that ratio is producing the most power without putting it on a dyno? I think this device would be great on a race bike but it's totally overkill for a street bike. I practice the KISS philosphy; Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Like I said, you aren't getting it on a few levels; forget for now about the money it can save over time as you go through upgrades as well as its ease of use, AND THE FACT THAT YOU CAN TUNE YOUR AFR WITH IT, you aren't getting the bit about how it tunes....you suggest above that it is the 02 sensors doing the tuning...it isn't, you the operator are doing the tuniing via a fuel controller while looking at the afr guage while driving/pulled over (like a rolling road dyno)....it just so happens that you can adjust the fuel controller right off the face of the afr guage via buttons. The "tune" then resides on your controller.

And just as you remove your wideband sensors once you have fiddled with your car, you do the same thing with the gen 4 system after setting it up the way you want.

You can thereafter slap the 02 sensors back on and re-adjust your tune when anything changes (new pipes, etc.). Plus, you are actually tuning based on your motorcycle's own tolerances, spec variations and 'state of tune' (ie: ring seal, gas quality, etc etc.)

How sure are you about how accurate your tune is particularly after a couple of years of use? You may need to go buy another tune or dyno session. Or indeed Henry you may be happy with it till the cows come home.

Anyway, I'm done.
.