$5 gas

[BlueJ]

Chill out Sal! I'm not attacking you! Hell I even agreed with you! Just pointing out that there's a LOT more than fuel economy to consider when making the switch to a new vehicle - as you yourself pointed out, it's the decrease in maintenance costs that really tip the scales.

You wrote

1250 gallons a year on the van at $5/gallon = $6,250/yr
714 in the cmax = $3,570

So the van cost $6,250 gas and $8000 maint for 4 years, $14,250 total.
CMAX = zip for repairs and $3,750 gas

Difference = $10,500. Cost of CMAX= $20,000.

You're down $9500 after 4 years.

I think you forgot to multiply the $6250 x 4.

Yep you're absolutely correct I did. Also forgot to multiply the $3,750 x 4. So you're up $500 after the 4 years - and you're a high mileage driver, so this is still consistent with what I originally posted which is that it takes a more average mileage driver a LONG time to recover the cost of getting a new car BASED ON FUEL ECONOMY SAVINGS ALONE. Your own numbers support that, I don't understand why you have your panties in a bunch.

You can't bullshit a bulshitter. What are you getting at? You keep saying I am disingenuous. That I am hiding behind fuel economy arguments. Are you trying to argue that it is better to keep big gas guzzlers? It could be if you drive low miles. Maybe your Frueduan slip is showing. You did say it's a hot button. So just say what you really think. You like to collect big cars or whatever. Hey, I like hot rods too. I like them, but i don't pretend they are rational.

Who's the one with the button here? I didn't "keep saying" *you* were disingenuous. I said, one time, that justifying the F250 for minvan swap at *today's* fuel prices instead of the prices in effect when you actually did the swap could be misleading if someone wasn't reading closely.

I could give a flying fuck if you do, or don't, want to drive a gas guzzler, or collect hot rods, or whatever. I'm not saying you are "hiding" behind fuel economy arguments. I'm just tired of hearing people "justify" their car decisions based on fuel economy arguments when those arguments don't hold water. In your own case, it's the $2000/year maintenance you saved when you swapped (and when you swap again) that really tips the scales, afterall. That's all about the car being new, and not at all about it's mileage. That's all. No judgement, no nothing.

...For instance you write - "we are now at the point where the rate at which new discoveries are made each year exceeds our consumption, so now, just 125 short years after we started sucking the oil out of our planet, we're on the diminishing returns end of the curve"

Yep that was a typo (the 'Lass was impatiently tapping her feet waiting for me so that we could go ride to work). The correct phrasing is that "we are now at the point where the rate at which new discoveries are made each year *no longer* exceeds our consumption..." The rest of the comment stands.

Again, you're being incredibly defensive considering I'm not attacking you. Or somehow bothered that I'm agreeing with you, I don't get it.

All I'm trying to state that fuel economy alone is generally not a sufficient financial justification to swap vehicles. Period. Nothing you've posted contradicts that.

So, yes, cheers!!

 

[BlueJ]

Because I'm an ass, and I cannot resist (tongue firmly in cheek here!)

As for the van - even if it paid me back only $18,000 out of $19,000 that would be an awesome deal. A brand new car for $1000!!

Well, not quite. By that time it's a 4 year old minivan with 100K miles for $1000.

 

[BlueJ]

I like the Babes on Bikes thread.

+1. Best thread here!

 

[loxpump]

Well I have 3 full size trucks and an SUV with none of them getting over 16 mpg an all with well over 100,000 miles. and one is a diesel, now there's a bargain. I bitch about the price of gas like most people do, just makes me feel better. I could do something about it, I suppose, but just don't want a car payment anymore and I kind of like having more metal around me. Very interesting thread and when it got started I was sure it was going to get political and get shut down. I also do vote in every election, just feel like it's my chance to speak, and even though I live in downstate Illinois, corrupt Chicago calls the shots.

 

[Sal Paradise]

Ok BlueJ.

Not meaning to be defensive at all. I chalk it up to the effect of the internet and typing fast.

Cheers.

 

[koifarm]

Ooookay now....

Whew ! I was getting readers cramp along with a brain lock reading the posts....
Glad y'all kissed and made up.....
But....for the record, I'm driving a Chevy S10, extended cab, 4 cyl, stick shift which gets an honest 24-25 mpg on the road and about 22 in town...if you keep your foot off the gas pedal....all paid for and minimal maintenance so far.
The bike, just like any other bonnie....good mileage.
I've also found that if I keep the truck at 60-65 on the interstate you usually get 26-28 mpg, it's when you bust ass at 75-80 it sucks gas like a maniac...
It's also too bad you can't draft semi's...that might save you a bundle on a long trip, you'd need a CB though and get the guys permission to do it. Not an easy thing these days....

 

[jphickory]

I find these quasi technical/political threads frustrating because many posters just regurgitate worn out talking points and display no critical thinking or knowledge.

This could have been an interesting thread. Discussing the difference between natural “reserves” and “resources” and how the subtle difference in definition is used by politicians to advance certain policy agenda. Or discuss the current debate in the scientific community if oil and natural gas is a product of biomass decomposition or whether hydrocarbons are produced by a chemical and pressure reaction and are not actually a “fossil” fuel.

Ignorant statements like: “voting does not matter” or “politicians do whatever they want - we just live here” makes me hope that on election day these people stay home. The greatest risk to this great country is an uneducated electorate that is satisfied with getting their “information” from the mass media and possesses no desire or ability for independent thinking and analysis of the so-called “facts” presented to them.

This post probably offends some – but it needs to be said.

 

[Sal Paradise]

Koi,

I had an ooold Ford 150 with the I-6 that got a steady 19 MPG until it finally went to the junkyard in the sky. That truck NEVER needed any maintenance but it rusted to pieces.

With the Focus I can eek it up to the low 40's but as soon as I hit a couple redlights , it plunges. At a steady 80 on long trips it gets 34 mpg.

BlueJ - I will say you did not make me mad, hope I didn't sound like it. But you were well worth arguing with. You put the effort in and made your points and I appreciate that.

 

[BlueJ]

I find these quasi technical/political threads frustrating because many posters just regurgitate worn out talking points and display no critical thinking or knowledge.

This could have been an interesting thread. Discussing the difference between natural “reserves” and “resources” and how the subtle difference in definition is used by politicians to advance certain policy agenda. Or discuss the current debate in the scientific community if oil and natural gas is a product of biomass decomposition or whether hydrocarbons are produced by a chemical and pressure reaction and are not actually a “fossil” fuel.

Ignorant statements like: “voting does not matter” or “politicians do whatever they want - we just live here” makes me hope that on election day these people stay home. The greatest risk to this great country is an uneducated electorate that is satisfied with getting their “information” from the mass media and possesses no desire or ability for independent thinking and analysis of the so-called “facts” presented to them.

This post probably offends some – but it needs to be said.

"Discussing" anything that one read somewhere or heard on TV is "regurgitating worn out talking points", by definition. Expressing one's own opinion is not. You may not agree with those that are disenchanted with our present political system, but that doesn't actually make them wrong, or you right.

But mostly, one of the ground rules of NBR is NO POLITICS, so most folks (myself included) aren't stepping up to your bait. Doesn't mean I don't have lots to say on the topic, just that this isn't the venue.

 

[BlueJ]

My son, who's about to turn 21, has a Ford Exploder that his mother gave him. He's got not much in the way of a job, taking classes at the local community college. The Exploder gets let's say 15mpg. And probably costs 2 grand a year to maintain. The kid gets a bit of help from his mom on the maintenance since it's technically her vehicle and he's living with her, etc. So maybe a grand out of his pocket.

But he bemoans the cost of gas, constantly, and for good reason. Just getting to school to work and home runs him $12 a day, $3000/year. That's a hefty fraction of his post-insurance part-time income. But what can he do about it? If he could replace it with a car that used ZERO gas, he'd have 3000+1000=4000/year he could afford to pay for that car. Not that there's such a thing as infinite MPG, but if there was, it would cost way more than $15-20K (assuming a 4-5 year payoff period). But you can find cars that get 30 mpg all day long. Maybe even 45 if you're lucky. Cut his fuel by a factor of 3 and zero out his maintenance, he's got $3000/year to apply to a replacement. That's a hard thing to find, and even if you did, he's got to wait 4-5 years for breakeven, which means in the interim he's worse off than he is now!

So there's the beautiful catch-22 of the situation: the more you would truly benefit from better fuel economy (i.e. the less money you have), the less able you are to find an alternative!!

In my son's case, the answer (to me, anyway) is clear: he needs to get off his lazy butt and get a 2nd part-time job so that he can appreciate that you have to work hard in this world to get ahead, or he needs to take public transport more or set up carpools. His mother didn't do him any favors by "giving" him that old POS.

Here's hoping I'm smart enough not to make the same mistake with my '01 Trooper when my daughter gets to be that age!!!

smoochy smoochy, Sal.

 

[nohawk]

Keystone XL pipeline= Temporary Jobs

95% of all pipeline construction jobs are temporary.

And Im not convinced that the refined product from the tar sands "oil" was ever meant for domestic use. If so why are the pipeing it to a refinery that is located on the gulf and not just sending it to Ft. Mcmurrey to let Flint, Tesoro or Husky refine it?

 

[nohawk]

Or why not build a refinery in N. Dakota?

 

[thearcticsea]

I find these quasi technical/political threads frustrating because many posters just regurgitate worn out talking points and display no critical thinking or knowledge.

This could have been an interesting thread. Discussing the difference between natural “reserves” and “resources” and how the subtle difference in definition is used by politicians to advance certain policy agenda. Or discuss the current debate in the scientific community if oil and natural gas is a product of biomass decomposition or whether hydrocarbons are produced by a chemical and pressure reaction and are not actually a “fossil” fuel.

Ignorant statements like: “voting does not matter” or “politicians do whatever they want - we just live here” makes me hope that on election day these people stay home. The greatest risk to this great country is an uneducated electorate that is satisfied with getting their “information” from the mass media and possesses no desire or ability for independent thinking and analysis of the so-called “facts” presented to them.

This post probably offends some – but it needs to be said.

Just stop dude. I've been where you're at and I've evolved past it. Realize that and get off your high horse.

I had my "let's debate" phase when I was 24 years old. I learned quick, and at 30 I realize that guess what? None of the shit anyone says about anything matters. Nothing you say matters, nothing I say matters, nothing Obama, Romney, or any other politician says matters, nothing the Bible says matters, nothing aetheists say matters. We're all just stupid animals that need to shut the fuck up and worry about getting enough mangos to eat every day. Inevitably, nationality doesn't matter. Every country sucks because people fuck everything up. The only thing that is even worth thinking or talking about is family, fun, and making a paycheck.

Fuck your opinion and fuck everyone's constant babbling. The world would be a better place if everyone just shut the fuck up and got to work. Pseudo-intellectual bullshit pisses me off.

 

[thearcticsea]

That being said------ I'd buy you a drink and a burger and shoot the shit all day about motorcycles! : )

 

[jphickory]

You sound miserable dude. If a drink and burger would lighten your load I'd be happy to meet you - as long as you don't mind riding to Missouri. 8)

 

[Sal Paradise]

Just stop dude. I've been where you're at and I've evolved past it. Realize that and get off your high horse.

I had my "let's debate" phase when I was 24 years old. I learned quick, and at 30 I realize that guess what? None of the shit anyone says about anything matters. Nothing you say matters, nothing I say matters, nothing Obama, Romney, or any other politician says matters, nothing the Bible says matters, nothing aetheists say matters. We're all just stupid animals that need to shut the fuck up and worry about getting enough mangos to eat every day. Inevitably, nationality doesn't matter. Every country sucks because people fuck everything up. The only thing that is even worth thinking or talking about is family, fun, and making a paycheck.

Fuck your opinion and fuck everyone's constant babbling. The world would be a better place if everyone just shut the fuck up and got to work. Pseudo-intellectual bullshit pisses me off.

:lol3::lol3::lol3:

Ohh man .. Mass isn't that far from NY and that was worth a beer.

I would write more but I just spit mango all over my keyboard...

 

[jphickory]

Actually Sal - I think he'd be better off visiting Missouri. A little Midwestern common sense and values might rub off on him.

 

[Kirkus51]

Voting, for me, is very important. At least you've had your say one way or another.

As far as mass transit goes, the one or two times I used it, it was great. There's a park N ride a mile or so from me and you can't find a space half the time so people are obviously using it. There's been preliminary construction around here to prepare for a light rail system from Boulder to Denver, but the funding has dried up, so all we've got so far is higher bridges.

There was a belt road that was started and funding ran out on that, so the private sector took over and we now have a toll road around 1/2 of the Denver area.

So, infrastructure has big problems. The light rail system we do have is going gangbusters. The housing around those stations is thru the roof, so there must be something to this mass transit thing.

BUT..... it's just a concept to me as in my world it doesn't make any kind of impact. Five bones a gallon is what we're going to pay so stock up on Ramen noodles and cans of beans and don't be a lead foot. We'll survive.

 

[BlueJ]

mangos

Yum. I agree with everything you said.

 

[Demar]

Now that I'm all caught up here I'm going over to the Babes on Bikes thread.