Carbs, Cams, Igniter

[zmilin]

Ive finally done it. After three years of bugging Carlos and reading number pages of information, sifting through everything I could find I have finally placed my order for 813 cams, stage 3 igniter and FCR39s.

I did the usual pipes, aibox removal and rejet years ago and have been researching options on and off since then.
This will be my next step in the performance build up of my bike.
Ill be removing the cams/igniter later this week and getting them off to Carlos.

Im really hoping to get a dyno run in before I tear it down so I have a baseline before these mods. If I can't then best la vie.

 

[MattRat]

I know what cams and bigger carbs do to the engine, but what does the stage 3 igniter do?

 

[B06Tang]

subscribing as I might be picking up an America

 

[qwenzel]

I know what cams and bigger carbs do to the engine, but what does the stage 3 igniter do?

It chages the timing 3 degrees advanced and raises the redline by 500 rpms. At least that's what it did for my T100 with its 360 degree motor.

 

[hankmarx]

It chages the timing 3 degrees advanced and raises the redline by 500 rpms. At least that's what it did for my T100 with its 360 degree motor.

Did it raise your top speed as well? or just quicker?

 

[zmilin]

I know what cams and bigger carbs do to the engine, but what does the stage 3 igniter do?

I should have said option 3 igniter. It raises the rev limit to 8500rpm, advances the timing 3 degrees and remaps it to suite the cams and ultimately the big bore that is in my future.

Here is how its listed on the TPUSA website:
Option #1:Rev limiter raise.
Option #2: Rev limiter raise+Standard Ignition Remap,stock cams (+3degrees).
Option #3: 904 big bore,or stock displacement,-813 cams Rev Limiter raise +Ignition Remap.
Option #4: Rev Limiter raise+Custom Ignition Remap.

You can see some more info here: http://www.triumphtwinpower.com/270-rev-limiter--ignition-advance-remap.php

 

[zmilin]

Baseline dyno run

I could have sworn that when I did a free dyno run a couple years ago my HP was closer to 55hp. I don't think I had the Thruxton needles back then and I doubt needles cost me 5hp. Anyway, not a big concern as there are more better things coming soon :respect1:

Bike specifics: 07 America, 865cc, K&N pods (with rain socks), 150/45 jetting, Thruxton needles and Specialty Spares long cannons.
peak HP: 50.74
peak Tq: 49.27
Theres a nice little lean spike at 2500rpm then another minor one at about 4200rpm. Otherwise it looks like Ive been pretty rich. I expected this and since Im upgrading to the FCRs Im not going to mess with it.

 

[qwenzel]

Did it raise your top speed as well? or just quicker?

I image if I could run my bike in 5th gear to the redline the top speed would be higher. But I rarely run my bike WTO in 5th. Now as far as the first 4 gears are concerned, the acceleration is better.

 

[zmilin]

Update for you all here at NBR (Ive been posting over at BA.com as my adventure has unfolded but I know there are folks here that aren't over there) ...
I got a box of stuff from Carlos on Monday and was like a kid in a candy store.

The pistons were for the 865 HC (high compression) kit TPUSA makes. They made it in the box by mistake. I was going to return them but have decided to install them (keep reading and you'll find out why I am keeping them).

Heres a pic of what showed up.

Well... I got to work right away. The bike hadn't moved in weeks except for side to side while it was on the jack.
I got my cams ready to go and noticed the "TOP" on drive gear was not on top so I spun the rear wheel to get it on top. Marks aligned, cams went in and I started checking valve clearances. Well... I got to a point where I couldn't spin it by the rear wheel anymore so I let the bike off the jack, put it in gear and rocked it a few times. Each time hearing a tap that sounded like the clutch catching. Back it up, put it in gear and push it again. I was thinking it was just being stubborn until that sinking feeling came over me and I had realized what I had done.
After a raging river if expletives flowed out of my mouth and I took a break, I went back down, spun the drive gear 180 degrees, reinstalled cams, got free movement all the way and measured.
Wouldn't you know it... the last set of valves I measured were waaaay out compared to the rest. Most were between .299 and .381. Two exhaust valves were 1.499 and .889.

The next morning I began the teardown and found that I had definitely made contact between piston and exhaust valves.

The light shining through the exhaust valve is NOT normal.

As of this afternoon my head is packed up my head and on the way to Carlos for a Stage 1 job plus exhaust valve repair. In a stage 1 the exhaust valves stay the OE size. The Stage 1 will provide me some gains but I won't be taking full advantage of the work until next year when I get that 994 in there. The head is off and the bike is down no matter what so I may as well get it done now.

When all is said and done I will have FCR39s, 813 cams, headwork and higher compression pistons.

I still feel like someone kicked me in the gut and can't believe my stupid mistake! Goes to show... patience (or at least a note to myself taped to the motor) would have saved me a lot of time and money. Im sure Ill be smiling ear to ear when all is done though.

Oh... just for a comparison heres a pic of the OE pistons next to the HC piston.

 

[sweatmachine]

I can top that mistake. A few years ago I fucked up resetting the cam chain tensioner while installing my 904cc kit and snapped my cam chain within the first 10 miles. I had just put in all new oversized valves and managed to bend all of the valves on one side. Major dumb ass move on my part. I had to split the cases and replace the cam chain etc. It's fine now though.

 

[zmilin]

OoO... I remember that. I had no idea what you were talking about back then but I knew it was bad.
Worst part about it is that today is sunny and tomorrow will be mid 50s and I can't ride. But when she's back together I'll be riding the living shit outta her... Unless it starts raining again... Lol

 

[sweatmachine]

There's a simple fix to that problem. You need a 2nd bike.

 

[zmilin]

My second bike is on Karens finger... A couple more years...

 

[zmilin]

Its been a productive couple days....
Head arrived yesterday and I promptly there work to the wayside and got to work. Heres a few pictures (cause we all like pictures) and some commentary...

Jugs are on. TPUSA High Compression pistons are in.
Lesson learned here... make sure your rods are in the highest possible position. :banghead:

Head is on.

Cam chain is on, crank and cam drive gear are aligned, everything rotates freely with no interference from pesky valves this time :respect2:

Carbs (FCR 39mm) are on, filters are on, engine mounts on, oil lines are connected, and everything is toured to spec.
These carbs are not easy to get on. The OEM cables needed to be bent for clearance as they are much higher now. Its not shaping back like it should so Ill investigate more later and maybe need to order new cables.
Tip for getting them on....
Mount the intake manifolds to the head first.
Get the carbs in place and everything connected.
Then get the rubber boots on starting with the interior bolts (snug), rotating the rubber boot and get those bolts in tight, then go back and tighten the other bolt. I use low clearance bits and 1/4 open end for this.

The motor spins freely and its time to do valve calculations so I can get down to the shop tomorrow morning and get some shims.
I used the shims I had previously calculated (except for the bent valve locations) and they are now too tight. Im going to need to go back, pull the cams and use the thinnest shims I have on hand in hopes of getting some clearance. If not its going to be a back and forth kind of day tomorrow between home and the Triumph shop.

A coupe final pics... everything went together well and with minimal issue. I cleaned as I went along so it took a little longer that expected.
My Nology wires broke again so I had to borrow Karens OEM wires.
A few details still need to be done. Need to fit the cheese garters and side cover. Ill do that after the first 50 mile run.

Here she is minus seat...
I wish my back could handle one of those low profile seats... it looks so wicked low slung like that.
This was moments before I fired her up. Maybe if Friar is nice hell embed the video so everyone can see and hear the beast awaken!

WOW! Just WOW!
She had a bit of a struggle to start but when she did it was like a pissed off best. The sound is so different than what it was. Its deeper, stronger and those clacking carbs (I forgot FCRs clack at idle) make for some interesting noises coming form my baby.
I had the throttle a bit tight and it took me a minute to get the idle down.
The kid in the video is my neighbor. He was pointing out a few small spots that were smoking. Probably drops of oil or whatever I missed during the wipe down.

I can't give you any feedback on performance yet cause the first 50 miles was to be held at low rpm (3000-3500 with short burst up to about 5k. I only did 20 miles today and Ill do the other 30 tomorrow. To keep my rpms that low I had to keep it in lower gears (or do I mean higher gears... I was cruising at 3000 in 3rd or fourth and keeping to the speed limit) so the burst weren't that memorable.

I think its time for new throttle cables. Mine have been a bit sticky and after bending the ends at the carbs they tend to be a bit stickier now.

Heres a little video to give you an idea.

First start

 

[zmilin]

Carbs, Cams, Igniter and HC pistons (update)

Another update for you all here...
Its been a fun filled, stressful at times but productive weekend here in good ole Seattle.

Fri saw the arrival of parts and assembly (about 65%) as you saw above.

Sat saw the final assembly and first start (did you see the video)!
Sat also saw a 20 mile ride that was good but still had a few residual issues. High idle and me not being able to adjust it, sticky throttle, a broken spark plug wire and me starting to wonder what I had down wrong. To top it off when I checked the bike later that evening I noticed oil around the bottom of the jugs. I was thinking bad seal between the head and jugs or something worse.

Sun got me on the bike again (after cleaning the oil leaking so I could possible get a better idea of where it was coming from) to do the remainder of the first 50 miles. After trying to adjust the idle speed again I felt the adjuster go loose. Damnit! I knew what I did, backed it out too far. No more than two miles into it the bike was popping, stalling, backfiring... not good, not good at all.

I got it back in the garage and pulled the carbs in no time. I got the idle screw back in place and adjusted so it was ready for me to adjust. I removed the "hidden" fuel filter I had transferred over from my OE carbs (I was wondering about this but didn't have an inline filter so I figured this was safer for now). I also adjured the position of the throttle cables further down into the brackets that hold the carbs. She fired up and a couple turns of the idle adjuster and she was idling smooth. Yeah! Victory #1. Snap the throttle and it snapped back on its own. Yeah! Victory #2.

Got geared up, pulled the plug wires from Karens bike (just in case) and headed out. Came back 30+ miles later with a big ole shit eaten grin. Yeah Victory #3!

Carlos had me at 3000-3500rpm with stabs to 5000 for the first 50 miles. Sunday I felt a significant difference in the bike. Kinda like someone was tugging on my collar as I was throttling up. Well, near the end of the ride I had passed the 5000rpm mark and HOLLYSHIT! Like someone hit the NOS button. My bike has never put me in my seat like that ever! Get it home, shut it down and now I wait to see if she leaks again.... an hour later dry as 90 year old whore. Yeah, Victory #4!

Oil change is down and now Im ready for the next 500 miles of break in... and that shit eating grin... still here!

 

[Amglo]

That's all good news, I know you put a lot of time into the rebuild. Funny how the little issues drive us nuts when all you want to do is ride. Enjoy!

 

[zmilin]

Yet another update...
Got the starting this sorted with the help of Carlos. Took a few days of a tweak here and there but once he got me to that sweet spot, starting it with the FCRs is less of a PITA that it was with the OE carbs.

As of right now Im 140 miles out of my 500 mile break in being done and a change back to synthetic oil. Of course its raining for the rest of the week... DOH!

May 8th it goes down to the dealership for some dyno tuning. Gotta have that A/F ratio correct with those high compression pistons... detonation is bad and I don't want to chance it. I can't wait to get it over 5000 rpm though.

 

[zmilin]

82Hp / 55Ftlb

Of the 13 runs they did only one made it to 83 Hp but every other run was 82Hp/55FtLb :headbang2:

I rode a bit yesterday and a bit today. I have not had the opportunity to get it out for more than 50 miles at a time.

Initial impressions are as follows:
- Im glad I wear a full face otherwise everyone would see the stupid grin on my face. Seriously, no exaggeration, Im grinning ear to ear even when Im hang on for dear life.
- The sound is deeper. More pronounced and seems to be less "twangy" out of the pipes.
- I hate to admit it but when I really get on it its intimidating. Im getting used to it but none the less, its a lot more bike than I had before. Id also be lying If I didn't admit that the first time I really got on it that it dint scare the snot outta me. I simply didn't expect it to be like this. I had an idea due to the one time during break in that I got it up there but I partially dismissed that to being giddy. :happy2:

Now something really interesting...
- I thought I had an issue between 1st and 2nd. It felt like it was bogging after shifting into 2nd. I did some more runs today (a combo of roll on and WOT) and figured out what was happening...
-- The torque comes in close to 3k and stays there (within a couple ft/lbs) all the way to redline. For as awesome as that is it creates a situation... Normally we can feel the need to shift the bike because we feel the power drop off. Our brains tell us its time to shift at that point. Most of us do this even if we have a tach... we don't really look at it and the tach is really only a security blanket or a tool to help us know where our idle is and maybe at what RPM we are at when we balance carbs.
Imagine taking away the power drop off and having an odd angle view to the tach (sorry if you never noticed that because you will from this point forward). You know what happens... YOU HIT THE REV LIMITER ... a lot and it makes your bike cut out when you do that and THAT makes you think that your bogging down in the next gear. The very moment you realize that your power is so dang consistent all the way to redline and that you may actually need a shift light is when your grin tries to get bigger than your face can handle and your cheeks hurt. :fat grin:

There has been some inquiries about how smooth the bike really runs at idle with the carbs and cams... silk! Like silk! I might even go out on a limb and say it runs smoother than it did before. Ill get this on video as well.
How easy is it to start with no choke... pfft! Who needs a choke! I believe I described this in a previous post but its even easier now that the carbs seem to be right. Of course the weather has warmed up so I can't tell you how easy it is to cold start it but Ill let you know when it gets cold again in a few months.

I can go on and on and on but I won't. I have decided that its ok to brag a bit so Im going to do that for a while and not feel guilty about it, not one bit.

Heres are a couple dyno sheets for you to check out:
Current

Before/After comparison

 

[mikenva]

Thats good numbers for a stock bore motor.You will have fun with it.When it gets so it dont scare you then you can go bigger lol welcome to the dark side.